It’s true. Sometimes we vets want to hide when breeders come our way. Altogether too often they infuriate and intimidate us with a reputation for stressful demands and know-it-all ways . I know this because my vet friends bemoan their patronage while grumbling posts on the Veterinary Information Network (the vet-industry-only online watering hole) confirm the seemingly universal sentiment.
In fact, I’d venture to say that breeders are a small animal vet’s top most begrudged client category, second only to those who abscond on their bills.
Don’t be offended—I know many of you who read this are breeders. But, as you know best, breeders are not all created equal. The fact that you’re reading this likely means that vets don’t deserve to despair as you make their way into their place of work. Not so for many of those who would proudly count you among their brethren.
For those of you not in-the know, most producers of purebred cats and dogs in this country are neither professional in their practices nor respectful of the way they treat their vets—not to mention the animals in their care.
Any breeder worth his or her salt understands this reality and is likely as frustrated as we vets are—more so, perhaps, because they have to contend with the sad reality that they’ve got an uphill battle to fight every time they have to see a new vet (moving, specialists, etc.).
It’s gotten so that I have to disclaim when I refer a reputable breeder client to another vet so that the vet in question (typically a specialist) doesn’t take an automatic defensive stance in the midst of a rough day (specialists are people, too, and they have bad days and biases just like the rest of us).
In case you think this is an unfair way for a vet to treat any new client willing to pay good money for services rendered, consider these experiences I’ve suffered:
1-“Breeders” are not only more likely to challenge your prices (this is fine, by me) but to tell you to your face that what you’re asking for amounts to petty thievery.
I was once even informed that I was a “rapist” (yes, you read that right) for deigning to inform a backyard breeder of poor quality Goldens that her overcooked bitch’s pups were more than likely dead and that the mom had a raging peritonitis I’d have to charge a minimum of $1,500 to even consider treating in-house (I’d referred her to a specialist right away).
“Your emergency is not my responsibility,” is the phrase I obliquely referenced in my euphemistic response to the hurled insult. I didn’t refuse her my services, but somehow, I wished I’d quoted her a higher price after her outburst—just in case anything should go wrong (delayed healing, sepsis, etc.) and the estimate goes higher.
2-“Breeders” often want to challenge you on every medical point, seemingly to prove they’ve been around the block and that you won’t be able to rake them over the coals. Now, challenging is welcomed if it’s about getting to what’s best in a partnership scenario. Not, however, if it’s a “gotcha” game we vets don’t really have time to play by way of assuaging one person’s individual ego. This tactic drives me crazy.
3-“Breeders” manage to find themselves in the worst kind of emergencies at the most inconvenient times of day. Then they show up at the hospital at closing time acting as if (and sometimes telling your other clients) they’ve spent so much money on your overpriced services that they’re single-handedly responsible for the survival of your business. “I want my C-section NOW.” And did I not suggest we do that 36 hours ago?
4-Or how about the “breeder” who wants you to leave out all kinds of pertinent information on the health certificates—like retained testicles, umbilical hernias, heart murmurs and parasitic infections. You know, there are plenty of vets that will do this without giving you a hassle—why pester ME? I guess that’s because those vets charge too much for C-sections—or something.
I’ve yet to find the secret for keeping these creeps at bay. No matter how high or low your prices, no matter how rude or sweet you are, no matter how honest or ruthless, they always seem to find us. There are just too damn many of these losers out there.
I pity the conscientious breeders who have to negotiate rough waters in the wake of these unsavory customers. My only advice to them: Find a vet who works with you as a partner. This way you’ll learn new things (and she from you). This way you’ll get actual deals when you ask for simple things like dewormers and vaccines, some of which you can easily do at home. This way she’ll get on the phone with you fast when you’re in a bind. This way she’ll treat you like an equal. But I didn’t have to tell you that, did I?
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I've been involved with animals my entire life. i have been a breeder/exhibitor of purebred dogs for about 17 years. I belong to multiple breed clubs and sign and abide by their code of ethics (my criteria is actually rather higher)
You probably won't be surprised when I tell you that calls from the "breeders" you mention make me want to suddenly find an urgent errand to go on, or a window to jump out of. My vet refers them to me in an effort to back up what he has already told the person in question. Sometimes they find me via the internet or from word of mouth and either want to breed to one of my dogs or allow me the honor of breeding to one of theirs.
I have a good working relationship with my vets, I refer puppy buyers, rescue adopters and nice people who call looking for help their way. I don't refer back-yard puppy producers their way, although judging by the waiting room they find the way there on their own.
And when my vet refers some one to me, I take the call. It's part of the relationship. I may not be able to talk them out of breeding their untested dog or bitch, but I can try. And sometimes I find out later my efforts have indeed paid off.
JenniferJ February 10th, 2008 01:53:00 PM
I'm grateful that this forum is allowing me to re-enter the human-canine world in a positive and passive way. Your post brings back an old memory of a vet visit with 2 Sealyham pups I bred, that per requirement of the national club's breeder ethics, required tail docking and dew claw removal. Present for all of the "5" survivor pups whelped (3 litters over 15 year time frame),at this particular visit, I noticed a crate on the floor in the back with a litter of pups. What's that, I asked? Oh, that's a litter dropped off by a "backyard breeder". The crate obviously hadn't seen a cleaning sponge for years, I was aghast.
I held my 2 clean white butterballs, that showed no distress for tail docking, but screeched to high heaven for the dews (all my Scotties have their dews-none in 30 years have ever caused a problem) and felt the same distaste of an unknown breeder that would so casually drop her pups off, all stuffed into a small filthy crate.
I found with my limited experience of the "pet-buying public", that my declaration of being a pet-owner my "first" priority, a breed club member, the "second", and a small-time breeder "3rd", somehow must mean that my pups were inferior or second-rate. Puzzled as they might have been, it weeded through my placement homes, that they were not in essence paying for a "puppy" , but a life-long relationship with "me".
To get back on point, I did have that veterinary relationship for over 14 years, through thick and thin, but little did I know of all the behind "the scene" clinic unrest, and the "loss of protection" of her departure from the state. She knew of my "ethics" and the love of my dogs. Pocket's death would have been swift and humane, as my 4 pet's were before her, trusted in "our" hands.
I surely do know and empathize with your comments, Dr. Khuly, I'm a person that was "lost" on the other side.
Barbara A. Albright February 10th, 2008 02:08:00 PM
Amen, Dr. K. I hate "breeders". I know that's a strong word, but I do. They act like they know everything and can do everything themselves - so they expect a deal on services. They constantly waste time asking questions that they have a preformed rebuttal to, just so they can "impress" you w/their expertise. If all else fails, they'll tell you just how many years they've been doing x,y,z - which just serves to show you how long they've been practicing their $@#hole routine. They treat doctors like walking prescription pads, demanding an ointment or antibiotic for whatever they've "diagnosed" while refusing diagnostics that any doctor worth their salt would require prior to initiating treatment. Then they sell low-quality pups to an unsuspecting public (and shame on the public for being so unsuspecting) and infect others with bad information ("the breeder told me you guys would say that, and she said she always just buys X over the counter and it works just fine"). Grr. It's just a total lack of respect.
On the other hand, we have a (precious) few clients that breed responsibly, and it's always a delight to see their new litters, well-cared for and on-time for preventive care appointments, with an owner who seeks our services because he/she actually values them.
anna February 10th, 2008 02:22:00 PM
A+ Post. As a new breeder (notice the small b) I really appreciate a post like this, for who else would be able or willing to say what needs to be said. That's what really amazes me about your blog, you're so honest, even if it means pissing off potential clients.
Most professionals wouldn't do what you do for any number of reasons. Fear of getting sued for saying true things about clients who don't like the truth or are embarrassed by it. Fear of exposing some of the behind the scenes aspects of a Vet practice that aren't perfect and glowing and postcard worthy. Fear of what other Vets would have to say (you're telling them our secrets!). Fear of coming off like a human instead of a magical veterinary robot. Even fear of client jealousy (why haven't you written about MY dog).
For all those reasons and more, your posts are a gold mine of information and eye opening perspective.
I have a whole blog post in the works in response to this post about breeders... my experience as a breeder with my vet (too bad you won't get my vet's side of the story!), but mostly my experience with these same types of breeders and what they do with other (potential) breeders. How they behave elsewhere, like online.
It really is amazing how often the Vet gets cast as the enemy.
Anyway, excellent post. Thanks for having the bravery to publish it.
Border Wars - Christopher February 10th, 2008 03:36:00 PM
Great subject, and a great post!
When a breeder's only goal is to make the most money possible, as quickly as possible, then they will exhibit all these reprehensible behaviors and more. I remember one who had bought a puppy from a responsible breeder on a spay/neuter contract. (This was in the days before Limited Registration). The owner went ahead and bred the dog anyway, then tried to talk the vet I worked for into writing a letter saying the dog had been spayed so that she could get her papers, and register the litter!! I'm still amazed and appalled and that was 20 years ago. My vet refused, of course - with some choice words that I still treasure :-)
So if you want to discourage them, you gotta hit them in the pocketbook. It not only will help keep some of them from darkening your door but may also teach some of them that breeding dogs is actually a risky way to earn some extra cash.
I would recommend just sticking to your guns, NEVER giving them a discount, and consistently highballing estimates. Pad the bill when you can. It doesn't matter if you're nice, or rude - if word gets around that you are expensive and won't give a breeder discount, then you'll see less of them. Money is the only thing that matters to them. But some are so ignorant they don't even communicate with other breeders, so unfortunately there will always be a few. At least, if your prices are high enough, it will help you feel compensated for the headache.
You can always give a discount when you want to. I've never asked, but I suspect my vet may have a policy like this... every time I check out - for any kind of visit from the most routine check up to a major surgery - there is a big discount on my bill. Which of course makes me feel good, and brings the cost down to a very reasonable level. But I suspect that if I were a PITA then that discount wouldn't be there, and the standard prices are definitely on the high side. :-)
But of course, I also have an awesome relationship with my vets. I do my part, they do theirs and it's a wonderful partnership.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but most of the responsible breeders that I know and admire have great relationships with their vets. So don't worry about offending "the good ones", and don't worry about their suffering from the fallout from the lowlifes. I think most vets are very able to tell the difference!!
Barb February 10th, 2008 05:23:00 PM
Breeder's have the advantage of knowing "family history" and the diseases and ailments prevalent in their breed; whether it be certain cancers, IVDD, or eye disease. Breeder's that stay in touch and follow their puppy placements can give the owners insight of where to begin with diagnosing an "ailment"---since they may have experienced the very same.
A "small" percentage of veterinarians to do not respect the decades of experience a breeder may have, nor the benefit of club surveys, club funded research (at the very same universities they may have obtained their degree), and sometimes it appears to take the client/patient for a ride to arrive at diagnosis, if at all.
As far as discounts, NEVER have I received a "breeders" or "multiple dog" discount (that some places offer to multiple pet owners), but surely don't suggest price gouging either! Word gets around, sometimes in a small way, sometimes big. It is within every veterinarian's right, per the AVMA code of ethics to refuse a client services (non-emergency) .
The unscrupulous "money-makers" are usually obtaining the bare basics of medical care anyways, hardly the opportunity to hit them in the pocketbook, but I understand the sentiments thoroughly!
Barbara A. Albright February 10th, 2008 06:49:00 PM
I know nothing of the dog breeding industry. . .but my strong inclination with what I've learned so far is to never buy a breed, but rather go to a shelter or rescue and adopt a 'mutt'.
My guess is they are more likely to be healthy. If you go to a good rescue (like I lucked into) they'll match you with the perfect dog. My dog came house-trained, car-trained, biscuit-trained, pretty much everything trained. I wouldn't be surprised if she has her own cell phone stashed somewhere in my house.
Call me mutt-biased, but I like the idea of saving a dog and getting a best friend. No-one need manufacture a designer dog for me.
And breeders, be kind to your vet. Just because your dogs are bitches doesn't mean you have to be one too.
Larry February 10th, 2008 11:16:00 PM
LOL! Larry- can I use that line?!!!
Meghan RAHT February 10th, 2008 11:40:00 PM
feel free to engrave it on a plaque and post it on your waiting room wall. ;-)
Larry February 11th, 2008 12:31:00 AM
Breeders of this kind are a scourge. I don't care how many years of breeding someone has under her belt -- it does not match the years a vet spends in school and the field, along with a vet's access to the newest evolutions of veterinary science. (But I've seen this in all kinds of pet owners. "Vets don't know anything about pet nutrition because they're all taught in Hill's-sponsored classes!" Yeah right, if your vet lives under a rock!)
It's an example of a much larger problem with pet owners who see themselves as experts in a field: they think their expertise magically expands to other areas of pet care. I used to work in grooming and would grit my teeth when my co-workers gave out training advice; now I work with trainers and want to knock my head on the wall when they give grooming advice. And of course the advice-seeker assumes a professional must know what she's talking about.
Agnes February 11th, 2008 02:23:00 AM
I couldn't agree with you more! Because of the wya many breeders behave, our vets are the best tools most people have in finding a truly ehtical breeder. When I was researching a breeder for my second collie pup, after I found the one I wanted I called her vet, the veterinary opthamologist she uses (the vet and a tech both bought pups from her because they thought so highly of her, and told me so!) and also our veterinary college where she would take the really big emergency cases. She had glwoing reports from all of them- and all told me that she refuses breeder discounts when offered because she doesn't want to be a burdern to the professionals she respects.
Of course, all of the vets were quick to complain about the other kind of breeders they deal with, too, and all said exactly what you said. Thanks for saying it!
Cindy February 11th, 2008 09:17:00 AM
dont breed or buy while shelter pets die
james February 11th, 2008 11:48:00 AM
Larry, any breeder worth wearing the designation of "reputable" will match you with the perfect pup for you just as any rescue would. :-)
Many of us who own purebreds also have a mixed-breed or two. Many of us are also involved in breed rescue and support our local shelters and mixed-breed rescue organizations. Mixes can be hardier or they can get the worst of both parents. Many rescues have issues, but they also have a certain charm. There's something to be said for raising a dog from a pup and getting a chance to get it right, but there's also something to be said for skipping the awful puppy stage and adopting an adult.
The way I see it, it's not mixed, shelter or rescue dog vs. purebred. There's no need for conflict between "camps."
Those of us who own purebreds are looking for particular predictable characteristics and/or want to participate in purebred events. As long as we're acquiring our dogs from breeders who don't breed until they have a waiting list, who test their breeding stock and ruthlessly cull those who don't pass muster (and by that, I mean they spay and neuter... cull does not equal kill), place all but the ones with reproduction potential on spay/neuter contracts and Limited Registration and are willing to take back anything they put on the ground.... we're not contributing to a problem.
Deanna February 11th, 2008 11:53:00 AM
More on topic, but only marginally, I just love it when I get the newly minted vet school grad who just started with the practice who just can't wait to bestow his/her knowledge on the client without bothering to find out the level of knowledge the client has. I figure they'll learn with experience and in the meantime I play dumb because it's no skin off of my nose to do so.
Deanna February 11th, 2008 12:00:00 PM
I've been wondering about this whole, "Don't breed or buy while shelter pets die..."
We all agree that non-quality dogs should be spayed and neutered? Yes? (And by quality- I'd think it depends on whether you are talking about working or show- or both- so I'll leave that decision up to you as to what is quality). Well, if all PET quality dogs and cats were spayed and neutered and no breeders bred- um, where the heck would that leave us? No mutts because all pets would be fixed and no purebreds because they'd all be fixed.
Hooray- no pets for anyone! Now, THAT isn't what everyone wants, is it?
I think it's an easy quote that sounds cutesy because it rhymes, but it doesn't solve the whole shelter situation.
Trish February 11th, 2008 12:25:00 PM
Deanna - point well taken. As I said, my knowledge in this area is extremely limited. You probably shouldn't pay that much attention to what I say other than for entertainment value. :-)
If you have the know-how and the time a puppy is probably a good idea. Personally I have all the self discipline of a cat chasing a ball of string. . .so my puppies have grown up to be adorable creatures that bite your hands, jump-up on you, and pee all over the house. Whenever we pass by the house I grew up in we still refer to it as the "urine palace". I bet the new owners still smell something funny 30 years later.
You can either BE a puppy or TRAIN a puppy. I choose the former.
Larry February 11th, 2008 12:39:00 PM
Trish: You're right....in the long run. But in the long run...we're all dead! My point is that I really don't think you have to worry about the extinction of mutts any time soon. You can't force everyone to spay/neuter no matter what laws you pass. And dogs being dogs...you can count on more dogs.
2CatMom February 11th, 2008 01:49:00 PM
Trish, there are those of us in some breeds who think we can get and want it all! (Show, working ability and a good companion.) Which is the way I think it should be. But I do get your point. It's not that way in every breed to the degree that working lines look like (and essentially are) a totally different breed than show lines.
Deanna February 11th, 2008 03:33:00 PM
Trish: even IF by some miracle we were able to get rid of our couple million surplus dogs annually in the states, even IF this happened overnight because a magical fairy came down and fixed every pet dog in this country, there are plenty of mutts beyond our borders. In my area there are already a couple of groups active in bringing dogs from Asia and Mexico. The argument that trying to get all pet-quality dogs fixed will create a lack of pet dogs to choose from is easily debunked. The whole point of trying to fix the dogs anyway is to control the population; once it does get under control, there's room to reconsider how we would like to proceed.
And that's a huge if.
Agnes February 11th, 2008 11:11:00 PM
See- but then we'd end up with JUST mutts.
And I'm sorry, but Greyhounds and their ilk have been around for centuries, according to everything I've read... A lot of dog breeds have been around for a very, very long time... I'd be VERY VERY SADDENED to lose such wonderful breeds (from wonderful BREEDERS, mind you, not the backyard type) and wouldn't want to exist in a world where there were ONLY mutts. Mutts are great- but so are many purebreds in this world.
Trish February 12th, 2008 11:17:00 AM
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