I would argue that he isn't considering quality of life and longevity when describing his dog's "perfect" picture of health. But then I don't rely on these people for my livelihood. Thank you for keeping the topic of pet obesity on the front burner. Staying fit and trim is especially important for our canine amputee friends.

tripawds.com May 29th, 2009 01:14:52 PM

I don't think you can argue with him.  The owner is clearly in denial.

I have a chubby kitty (not sure if she's a 4 or 5).  I know that she has a weight problem and have done many things to try to fix it.  The best I've been able to do for her is maintain where she is after getting her down a pound or two. 

As an owner it's frustrating to go to the vet and repeatedly be told that she's overweight because we've tried everything we can think of - measuring out her food, high quality food (weight control for indoor cats), toys, playing with her, getting another cat to chase her around when we aren't home.

Last year, I decided to cut back on her food and give her slightly less than the recommended amount.  How did she respond?  Pika.  She ate packing tape and had to be rushed to the emergency vet.  She was fine, but I was told not to limit her food any more.

Any suggestions?

Moo's Mommy May 29th, 2009 01:29:42 PM

Perhaps money might speak to this dog's owner. I'm sure he has heard about the possible (probable) health issues that accompany morbid obesity. Maybe he would be willing to consider changing his mind if he realizes that it's going to cost HIM money, since seeing the poor dog struggling doesn't seem to do it.

I have one plump cat, but since she has had feeding tubes 4 times and multiple medical issues (between toxic food and metacam) but she is slimming down on a grain free food. She feels so much better that she actually goes outside with me and has been "hunting" chipmunks. In fact she had one poor little critter trapped in the downspout this morning. So I know that she's feeling better with less weight.

dottie May 29th, 2009 01:35:56 PM

The pet obesity problem is as much the fault of the food maunfacters as it is the pet owners. The pet food is made with products our pet's don't need and if you were to follow the feeding recommendations on the bags, then there is a huge part of the problem.

The change needs to be made in the quality of the food as well as quantity.

LorriM May 29th, 2009 01:36:44 PM

Meant to say since she has had feeding tubes  . . . we didn't do anything too drastic to try and get the weight off . . . wish there was an edit button here.

dottie May 29th, 2009 01:37:45 PM

Owners like that I try to emphasize the diabetes factor.  Seems like lately we're seeing more and more pets (all overweight or previously overweight) coming up with diabetes. 

Most recent owner has been warned for years about over feeding his small (or at least used to be) dog with warnings of diabetes.  Guess what showed up with a BG of 500+?  Guess who chose to bump off the dog in favor of treatment and showed up a week later with a new dog?  *sigh*

cl May 29th, 2009 02:00:56 PM

OY.  You can't do more than you've done here.  That guy is not listening.  He doesn't want to.

I had one of those 150 pounders owned by a female MD who was also obese.  She did not want to hear about her dog being obese.  The dog was half rottie, ergo that number was acceptable, never mind that the dog would waddle in and collapse on the floor.

When the dog went lame, she refused to hear any of us that weight loss might be the way to start.  Instead she decided the dog had hip dysplasia and decided to see an orthopedics specialist for surgery (on her own, we didn't offer her a referral and she didn't ask)  The surgeon told her he refused to touch the dog until it lost half its body weight.  Owner still didn't believe that, and decided we'd somehow colluded with the surgeon.

This dog died when it was 5.  She didn't have to :(  We cannot fix those who don't want to be fixed

DrSteggy May 29th, 2009 02:03:33 PM

I don't know what to say about the lab owner. That's just.. wow.

Moo's Mommy -- one of my cats turns to non-edibles when we cut back on his food intake. It's very frustrating!

I have a question about the weight chart: some cats put on their weight as depicted on the chart, but others seem to develop a flabby, hanging gut. They look like 2 from above, but like 4 from the side. Is that just a male cat thing, or are these cats also fat?

Sarah May 29th, 2009 02:06:08 PM

Moo's Mommy - when my late-great Snoopy cat got tubby, the vet suggested switching to wet food vs. dry - less carbohydrates.  Basically, kitty Adkins.  It worked beautifully and he dropped the weight and was in total heaven getting wet food all the time.

Dr. K, as far as arguing with this client, I'm not sure how on earth you'd go about it except perhaps to point out that a dog is not a person, and the dog isn't going to have hurt feelings or feel judged about his weight, and focusing on some weight loss for the pup is certainly not going to cause any emotional harm.  It kind of sounds like he's a touch hung up on "I see the inner beauty of my dog and won't judge him based on his chunkiness" when it really doesn't matter to the dog...

Cindy May 29th, 2009 02:07:21 PM

Moo's Mommy and Sarah: Some work has been done on the issue of compulsive over-eating in animals. Some cats and dogs who turn to pica or suffer anxiety over their meal/mealtimes have been shown to do better while on Prozac (fluoxetine). Seriously. Prozac has also been used as a weight loss drug of sorts in human compulsive overeaters. Worth a thought. 

Dr. Patty Khuly May 29th, 2009 02:16:26 PM

In these cases it would seem that a cruelty charge is in order.  We would do it if they starved them, so why not for morbid obesity?

Wendy May 29th, 2009 02:32:22 PM

How do you argue with that? I'm sure you've explained the health risks that come with obesity and pointed out the health issues the dog is already experiencing.

If the person is in denial and is perfectly content to have a dog that is unhealthy and suffering then I can't think of any possible arguement that would work on them (I can think of plenty I'd be tempted to use, but the end result would more likely be offending them and alienating them, rather than winning them over.)

I know people with obese pets aren't necessarily bad pet owners and getting your pet to lose weight can be a real challenge with the attendant transition to new feeding & exercise habits and the additional supervision required if you have multiple pets with different dietary needs. Yet this kind of persistent and deliberate denial to the detriment of the pet really seems to be edging into abuse territory (though probably not the type that anyone could legally do anything about.)

In this case is it truly a matter of him being happy with the way the dog is or (based on the saracsm) is it more a matter of keeping an obese dog being the perfect aount of effort he intends to exert and the challenges of dieting the dog are not something he's willing to undertake?

Anlina Sheng - abnormalloveofcats.com May 29th, 2009 02:45:50 PM

Moo's mommy- I had the same issue with my obese cat. He was adopted overweight at 15lbs and immediately put on a diet. Various rx diets of w/d, then w/d & r/d combo then r/d. No weight loss. He continued to GAIN. It was beyond frustrating. After YEARS of counting kibbles, I said heck with the expensive rx foods and went to the comparable OTC food SD lite, Iams weight loss) and he still gained weight. 25lbs at his max and then diabetes.

Then we discovered wet food and Catkins as mentioned above. Holy cow! In the past 4 years, he is down to a flat 13lbs and can eat enough to be satisfied.  Within weeks of the diet change he also went off insulin.  He LOOKS like a 4 on the body conditioning scale but he has a TON of excess skin now from the losing over half his body weight and underneath that skin is a perfect 3. He needs a body lift.

Here are our before and after photos. The after picture shown is at about 14.5 lbs.

http://felineoutreach.org/Heather.html

Heather May 29th, 2009 03:06:34 PM

Dr. Khuly, we oftentimes have success explaining to the client that when they eat one McDonald's cheeseburger, the equivalent of fat content to the pet is 5 cheeseburgers.  Or, one candy bar for a human is the equivalent fat content to 3 candy bars for the pet (you get the picture, or should I say, they will).  We also tell them that the pounds we humans like to lose, are quadruple for pets, due to their small size and their shortened life spans in comparison to human life spans.  Search the net for graphics depicting the cheeseburger or candy bar equivalents, then print them out and give them to clients.  Then be sure you give them a PROPER measuring cup, one from Iams or Hills, and explain to them that their coffee cup at home is not a proper measuring cup.

lexipup May 29th, 2009 03:40:25 PM

I was in a vet's office recently and on display was a blob of yellow rubbery stuff.....looked like chicken fat to me.  It was, fat that is - a representation of dog fat.  I didn't get past the yuck factor after touching it - but I think it was part of a promotional campaign from one of the pet food companies for their "diet" formulations.    I'm slender, but even so the memory of that yellow blob comes to mind whenever I eat a french fry.  Maybe it would be a good teaching aid for you if you could find it.

Airedalelover May 29th, 2009 03:51:34 PM

Doc off topic somethings developing this morning what would circular black mold growing on the surface of canned pet food indicate? It's a major premium brand with a 2012 expiration date we're trying to figure out what to do. Your advise would be appreciated.

Evet May 29th, 2009 03:56:43 PM

Sarah,

My approximately 2 y/o neutered male has that hanging pouch of skin at the bottom of his belly too.  I've done some research and my understanding is that it is not fat but rather loose skin and not to be concerned about.  Well my guy is big (18 lb) its a healthy weight for him according to his vet.

Shannon May 29th, 2009 04:21:40 PM

158Lbs is way overweight for a lab.  However when showing your lab you will have a much better change of placing if your dog is overweight.  It is a sad fact.

That being said my male lab from above looks like a mix between 4 and 5.  However he looks like number 4 from the side, meaning he still has an hourglass figure and weighs 80LBS.  He is not fat or obese, he gets two cups of food per day (Orijen Large Breed Puppy) and gets plenty of exercise, including swimming 2-3 times a week, 30 minute walks every single day, as well as time on the treadmill when he is too hyper.  Judging if your dog is obese or not is also a matter of breed!  My Border Collie for instance if you were to shave her would look like a mixture between 1 and 2, but she is not underweight by any stretch.  So the chart above is great for a general guide but please take breed into account when judging how much you feed/exercise your dog.  Personally I believe that 158Lbs is abuse.  That owner is causing that dog to be in distress all of its life and they should be charged with animal cruelty.

Chuck May 29th, 2009 05:17:08 PM

Evet: Call the pet food company. Many times it is not mold, but a normal byproduct of ingredient separation after emulsification. 

Dr. Patty Khuly May 29th, 2009 05:34:07 PM

Moo's Mommy - I can relate too. My cat is always going to be a large cat - his body frame is big. He maxed out at 18.5 lbs. I managed to get him to 16 lbs 3 oz and maintain that weight.  Our vet uses a 9 point BCS scale, with 5 being perfect.  Our vet gave him a 5 at the time, although he probably could have lost another half pound.  He looked great though and we were very content.  Until IBD kicked in....

At the time he was eating three different flavors of a particular cat food. I eliminated two of the flavors after the biopsy confirmed IBD. Bad thing is, that meant eliminating the lowest calorie one - a difference of 20 calories in a 3 oz can. He is now at 17 lbs.  At one time I asked the vet if I should change his food and received a very emphatic 'NO'. His IBD is stable for the most part and when he gets sick, he is very sick (Cerenia, dolasetron, pepcid, vetalog).  His vomiting is very difficult to control.  He is maintained normally on pepcid and prednisone every other day, plus his one magic food.

This cat has a very, very slow metabolism.  About 14 calories per lb of weight.  My difficulty with him isn't pica. But if I cut too much, he simply can't function.  He can't sleep, can't play, can't do anything. I have worked hard to learn when he is looking hungry because it is a learned behavior (e.g. staring at me when I am eating), but I just can't starve him to the point where he is doing nothing about obsessing on food.  He is 9 years old and now has some early signs of arthritis - x-rays only showed some mild changes in his knees. He can't tolerate Cosequin (the last thing to make him very sick) so is now starting Adequan injections.  He was eating 6 oz of food a day and kept creeping to 17 lbs or just above. I've been taking out a small sliver of food with each meal to now keep him at least just below 17 lbs.  I will see where this takes me, but it a balancing act for sure.

Jenny May 29th, 2009 05:43:31 PM

FYI - Bo's initial weight loss also came from switching from kibble to canned food. He was eating a cup of prescription kibble at 235 calories per cup (RC WC 38).  Reduced initially from 18.5 lbs to 16 lbs 3 oz using 219 calories of canned food.  Because of food changes he is now at 238 calories on canned food and maintaining around 17 lbs.

My cat Wilson's story was more dramatic.  He weighed 16.4 lbs and also ate one cup of prescription kibble at 235 calories per cup.  He now eats a variety of lamb and venison canned foods with no carb source. He does eat about 2-2.5 tbsp of kibble a day as his stools seem better and it helps me maintain his weight from going too low.  He is now eating 265 calories a day and I just weighed him today at 14 lbs 12 oz. 

Jenny May 29th, 2009 05:51:23 PM

Thanks for the responses.  I'd heard about the "catkins" thing before but haven't tried it yet.  If that doesn't work, I'll bring up Dr. K's Prozac suggestion up next time I take Moo into the vet.  The good news is our (slender) male kitty looooves wet food.  So, he'll be quite pleased with the change in diet, too.

BTW, as I'm typing this, she's "mooing" to let me know she thinks it's dinner time - even though she has another hour.

Moo's Mommy May 29th, 2009 07:05:24 PM

My job is to run our weight loss program at our clinic.  I work with clients, helping them to get weight off their pets, then to maintain their weight.  I meet with them initially to make a feeding plan.  We may try prescription foods, or we may try commercial foods, depending on what the client is willing to do.  Then I meet with the client every 2-4 weeks, weigh the pet, and re-evaluate the plan.  I also call between visits to see if there are any problems or questions.  Once the pet is down to its ideal body condition, then I continue to meet with them as we adjust feeding amounts to help the animal maintain weight.  We have found that this type of support is key to getting obese pets down in weight, and to stay down .  The best part - we do not charge for this service!  We have a lot of successes, but also failures.  Those are clients who may come in every two weeks, but have lots of excuses about why they had to give in to the pet when they begged for food.

Cats are the hardest!  But I agree that feeding canned food is the best way to get weight off a cat without problems like pica.  It is also healthier for them in the long run.  The biggest problem I have with this is clients don't want to feed canned, either because of expense, or they don't like the smell.  A lot of cats have that loose skin on the abdomen - we call it their 'dewlap'!

I have my share of clients in denial.  It is sad.  One client told me point blank that she did not intend to 'deprive' her dog of the food he loved, and if that meant he would be fat and die young, well, that was OK.  She also is refusing to give heartworm medication now, since "he's going to die anyway from being fat'.  Staying patient with people like that is hard, but I keep trying!

Sassy May 29th, 2009 07:15:11 PM

There are a lot of people who really think fat pets - especially cats, but dogs too sometimes - are cute.  Or, as in the case of the Lab owner above, they think their fat dog is "big and solid".  It is so hard to change their perceptions, and then even if you manage to convince them that their pets are too fat they may not be successful at getting the weight off since that can be really difficult in itself. 

It's a bad situation - however I would be really opposed to charging people with animal cruelty for having obese pets. 

Partly because it could result in unfair charges of cruelty - it could be difficult in some situations for a conscientious owner to PROVE that they really have been trying to get weight off the pet.  And partly because it's not cruel from the animal's perspective - of course the pet may not be feeling well, may have joint pain etc. but he or she LIKES to eat, and is probably good at begging and manipulating the owner into providing more food.   The owner is just giving the pet what it wants. 

Neglect usually refers to withholding care, and cruelty usually refers to the intentional and malicious infliction of pain or distress - overfeeding really doesn't fit in either category.  And all that is separate from the whole issue of "nanny" government sticking its nose into our lives for our own good.

Barb May 29th, 2009 07:29:08 PM

@Chuck -- thanks for making that point.  If my whippets looked like a 3 I would be horrified.  I want to see them in between 1 and 2.  Preferably 1, but with much more muscle mass.  They just don't have the skeletal structure to support anything much above 4.

So I would say, sure body shape (morphology) is a good first indicator, but strength & scale (physiology) are critical.

Overall, I much prefer to see any dog or cat at 2 rather than 4.  Better to be a bit light than a bit heavy.  And I say this even after having gone through loving my whippet through IBD that stole 10 pounds before I decided to euthanize him.

Julie in OH May 29th, 2009 08:31:02 PM

"Wow, your perfect dog looks like a 400 lb person?"

"Wow, your perfect dog is one who's going to develop joint and heart issues and die early from morbid obesity?"

I wonder if showing a comparitive human chart might make a difference to people.  "If your dog were a person, he'd look like this."  Might not be great if owner is heavy, maybe...

I find that my dogs don't care how MUCH they get if they get it frequently.  I break commercial treats into tiny chunks and distribute them that way; the dogs are thrilled to get each little bit, and at the end they've still had almost none.  They get larger and more frequent bits of produce (still can't believe how crazy they are about yellow squash), but that's more because it's harder to keep them in a single piece the smaller the chunks get.  All they really care about is how MANY they got, not how much.  They're delighted to get fed twice a day; they aren't aware that each feeding is half what they used to get when they were fed once a day.

Perhaps if you can get people to acknowledge that it's the food=love issue that keeps them from wanting to put their pets on a diet, then you can give them hope: they can still give the dog lots of food, lots of feedings; just make each serving miniscule.  The dog will be just as happy.

Galadriel May 29th, 2009 10:10:40 PM

"If your dog were a person, he'd look like this."  That's the one that would have worked for me!

Another chance to say thanks to Dr. K.  My dogs look almost like a "3" now :)  Looked down a few weeks ago and could see the hourglass, their hips.  That was sweet.  Love these regular blogs on this topic as a reminder.

BTW, got my Furminator in the mail 2 days ago.  WOW, that is one COOL tool!  It's super shedding season in Houston and that always means a war between me and my long haired cat.  He doesn't love the Furminator yet but he sure doesn't HATE it like the comb.

PJBoosinger May 29th, 2009 10:27:32 PM

Oh, Dr K... how AWFUL!

Fatty pets are one of my major pet peeves.  I'm constantly getting comments like "Oh, she's sooo skinny - did you just rescue her?" about my cattle dog cross girl.  She eats well, she's very active, and she's FAR heavier than she looks.  But her body fat percentage is probably in the 2-3% range.  She's built like a sighthound, very deep chest, very small waist.

We just rescued a dog, on the other hand, that is 40kg.  She SHOULD be about 40lbs.  :O(  I walk her on a thin chain collar - not because she needs it, but because it's the only thing that doesn't slip over her head - her neck is actually almost larger.  Even martingales slip off of her.  Poor girl.

I completely agree that there should be a precedent for cruelty, when the client refuses treatment outright.  After all, how is this any different from any other kind of neglect, mistreatment or failure to provide care?  However, the law is what it is.  Even clear cut cases of cruelty are hard to prosecute sometimes.

I realize that the situation is completely different - the relationship between vet and client is unique - but when dealing with a client who refuses to accept their pet's need (regardless of the need itself) after a certain amount of time I resort to a full on confrontation.  I have been known to tell owners of fat dogs, flat out, that their dogs are in pain and are suffering.  That they can't breathe, enjoy life, and that THEY are the cause of every ache, pain and discomfort in their pet's lives.  That their pet is going to live a shorter, more limited, less fulfilled life because of THEIR neglect and refusal to accept the reality of the situation.  So far I have about a 50/50 rate when things reach this point.  But at least I can't say I didn't try *everything.*  And frankly, sometimes it TAKES that client going to someone else and hearing the SAME THING, unsolicited from a new person before it sinks in.  If it means losing the client, so be it.

The worst part of the fat pet revolution?  The fat-pet PROUD owners.  "MY rott is 160lbs!"  Oh.  You don't say.  What did he ever do to YOU?

Grrrrr

Kim May 29th, 2009 10:44:17 PM

I think Miss K is between 2 and 3 on the chart.  Rippling muscle is visible.   She is not food motivated, except by freeze-dried chicken treats.  I monitor her weight to check for untoward weight loss, using a scale made for infants.

Having a scale at home has helped a lot.  She is such a small cat that by the time she looked visibly thin, it would be serious.  The scale has a curved tray at the top and can be zeroed out after you cover the tray with a towel or little blanket.  The cat is quite cooperative about the weighing ritual.  I'd recommend having your own scale to anyone who is trying to maintain or modify a pet's weight.

Miss Kitty's Mom May 29th, 2009 10:54:51 PM

That arabic means something like "The Network of Women - women - zealous. code of zealous Tu (and some other word)"

WHat's that all about?

Anyways on the topic again of overeating dogs and/or breeds such as my beloved Labrador Retrievers.  You can cut the dogs food in half and add plain pumpkin to his food as a substitute for the missing half.  Dogs love it, and it works great.

Chuck May 29th, 2009 11:10:15 PM

PJ- I just had to comment on the Furminator....LOVE IT!  Also, last weekend I got a Dyson Animal Vacuum cleaner. (I've got a lab and shepherd!)  This is the ONLY vacuum I've ever seen actually pick up all the hair!  Also, I furminate the dogs over by my garden...keeps the deer out!

Kara May 29th, 2009 11:16:12 PM

@kim

Very very well put!

Chuck May 29th, 2009 11:17:06 PM

My dog is a picture-perfect 3, at about 34 lbs.  Her vet says not to go over 37.

Her dog food says to feed her 2 3/4 cups of food a day; we feed her only 1 1/2 to maintain her weight (and she gets plenty of exercise).  2 3/4 cups?  She'd be badly overweight.  I wonder how many people with fat dogs are just doing what the dog food bag tells them, instead of adjusting for their pet's particular needs?  (We had a metabolic panel run and such -- nothing weird's going on with her that she needs that little food.  It's just apparently like how my sister can live on candy bars and Cheetos and never exercise and be a size 4 and I live on fruit, lean protein, and greens and run 5Ks and play rugby and am a size 14).

Laura May 29th, 2009 11:24:28 PM

I know a lot of you are scared to hurt someone's feelings or alienate them from your practice, however I just tell it like it is.  I usually start off a meeting or conversation with "WOW your dog is fat!!".   Not much most people ususally say to that except "yeeeah, I really should have him on a diet".  Then if the conversation lasts past this point I will usually try to drive the point home that they are the food providers.  They can feed or not feed their dogs at any time.  And then after I've been mean and up front with them I usually tell them about the food I feed my pups and how good it is for keeping insulin levels from spiking up or down.  And how you only have to feed about 1/5 of what you would feed with crap like Iams and Eukanuba, or Hills (sorry Dr. K I know you're hands are tied with the AVMA and you'd probably have your license suspended if you came out in public and told people not to buy Hill).  And that lower feeding means less poop to clean.....well you get the picture.

Chuck May 29th, 2009 11:28:52 PM

Ack! Where to start!

My parents had two cats they overfed to the point that they looked like overstuffed chairs. On a visit, I opened their pantry to find a large bag of cat kibble...GROWTH FORMULA. I called my dad on that one. "Growth formula? That's for cats that need extra calories and fat,  like kittens."  His answer: "He likes it."

Would not wait the cat out for even a day or two to switch him to Rx food for urinary stones  -- instead the poor kitty had to have his peepee lopped off so he could pee without blockages.  OW.

Me, I have a French Bulldog who loooooooooves him some food. He is always hungry. Always trying to steal food. Not very interested in exercise. Maybe somewhere I will find a family member who will exercise him for me. LOL. He's no worse than a 4.

SusanR May 30th, 2009 12:29:12 AM

My vet was unable to draw blood on a female basset hound because she was so overweight that she couldn't find a vein! So I agreed to foster the dog. We told the owner that the dog was going to "fat camp"---the owner was also overweight (and had a couple more dogs at home in the same shape.) She promised to pick up the free-choice dry kibble bowl...sigh. But even at fat camp I had trouble getting the weight off that dog! Finally the owner complained and I gave her the dog back. The dog had dropped about five pounds, but my vet still couldn't draw blood. Although our change in diet helped clear up the ears and staff infection in the folds of her neck. Poor dog.

You can talk to people, and you can refuse service. If talking doesn't help, I'd go for the second option. If they aren't willing to help their dog, maybe they'll start to understand that you are serious when you refuse to collaborate with their mismanagement game.

I have sled dogs, and I get the "your dogs are STARVING" line from a lot of owners of overweight pets. They haven't a clue what a healthy athletic body looks like. (Me, I'm wishing my hubby could keep me on a chain and feed me a couple of cups of dry kibble once a day...mt opposable thumb gets me into the refrigerator or the top cupboards WAY too easy.)

LynnO May 30th, 2009 03:15:46 AM

Good points about the amounts of food listed on packaging.  Even though it always says it's a "guideline" people do tend to follow those recommendations - and in every case I've ever seen the amounts are WAY high.  Sometimes nearly twice the actual needed amount if the dog is sedentary.  I always used to tell clients "Well, they ARE in the business of selling food".  But it's surprising how difficult it is for so many people to just look at their pet and think "well he needs to eat a bit less" or "she needs a bit more food now".  What is so hard about that?*

*I have to confess, I've got very large dogs with short hair - so it is probably a lot easier for me to look at my crew and quickly assess condition.  I don't have to dig through hair or anything.  But this reminds me of a seminar given by Ian Billinghurst some years ago on feeding raw food.  Someone asked "How do you know how much to feed?"  He put up a slide with a drawing of a very, very skinny dog with all its ribs showing.  Underneath the drawing it said "FEED MORE".  The next slide was a drawing of a very fat dog, and it said "FEED LESS". 

Barb May 30th, 2009 03:48:17 AM

@Chuck -- There is an arabic spambot floating around here, they've comment on several posts now.

Pai May 30th, 2009 04:26:03 AM

I'm curious--Does pet size/weight tend to correlate with owner size/weight? In other words, are overweight pets more likely to have overweight owners?

(I'm gobsmacked that a lab outweighs me.)

Lauren May 30th, 2009 05:35:44 AM

I know one local clinic where the vet there talks about what percent overweight a client's pet is in relation to what it would be like on her (the vet)... that way if she's talking to an owner who is also overweight, the client tends to take it less personally. i.e. She'll tell an owner, " Your 15 pound cat who should weight 10 pounds is like me, a 150 pound person, weighing 225 pounds." That seems to put a better mental image in peoples' heads, rather than thinking, "Oh, it's just 5 pounds."

Megan May 30th, 2009 09:49:14 AM

Barb & Laura, thank you for mentioning The Bag.  The Bag and its guidelines almost got me into serious trouble with my two cats :D  I finally gave up completely and just measured the dry food out reducing it little by little until there was almost nothing left at the end of the day most weekdays.  I went from free feeding to 1 cup per day to scant 1 cup to 2/3 of a cup.  On weekend days when I'm home more they get an additional 1/2 can of wet food each and mostly ignore the dry stuff.  It's been about a month and a half at 2/3 of a cup and I've just started to notice a little change in weight.

Anne May 30th, 2009 11:24:01 AM

Thanks, Shannon and Sassy. I'd feel fat if I had a big 'dewlap' hanging around my middle! I grew up with outdoor cats who tended to be thin, muscular, and toned, so I might be a little hard on my indoor cats. I'll have to ask the vet how I should distinguish between the loose skin and actual weight gain. Of course, my one cat who tends towards excess weight never seems to have loose skin -- probably non-coincidentally!

Dr. Khuly -- I will keep Prozac in mind for "Behemoth." Exercise has kept his weight within bounds (swinging between a 3 and a 4), but he won't be a young, energetic cat forever -- and I know part of the reason we can get him to exercise is his very tense and intense personality. "Compulsive" is definitely a keyword for that cat.

Heather -- Wow, those are some impressive before and after pics! Yay for Mr. Tubs.

Sarah May 30th, 2009 11:28:11 AM

I believe there has been one successful prosecution for animal abuse where the pet was horribly obese... but that was because the poor dog actually got frozen to the sidewalk in front of his owner's house and couldn't get free.  :(

I have had a massively fat cat in the past, due to a number of factors - she'd been a spoilt only cat before being given to me, and came into a household with two other cats that were free fed.  Free feeding did NOT work for Cindy, as she just ate everything there and came back for seconds when we put more food down for the other two!  Eventually she was so fat that she couldn't wash the base of her own tail, which combined with our worst flea season ever got her a horrible infestation.  We got rid of the fleas and managed to get some of the weight off her through diet, and she immediately worked on washing the base of her tail bald and raw.  Our vet prescribed mild tranquillisers (I don't remember what sort) and being on "kitty Valium" made a huge change - not only did she stop washing herself raw, she lost most of the weight.  I think it may have been partly because we fed her the tranquillisers crushed up in a little plate of tinned food, and to make sure the other cats didn't steal it she got her 'special nummies' in the greenhouse room, shut in with a human cooing at her.  She certainly enjoyed the special treatment!

Mel Redcap May 30th, 2009 11:59:24 AM

Sigh.  My mother, RIP, used to say that if brains were sold in bulk, she'd buy them for some people.  This patient's owner seems to fall into this category.  With some people, scare tactics work: telling them their dogs will be dead in under six months and they will have to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives.  With some people, nothing works.  They are hopeless.  Sorry, but that's the truth.

Natalie Kramer May 30th, 2009 01:11:54 PM

Kara, I'll look into the Dyson too.  I don't usually have carpet for a number of reasons but I still keep a vacuum on hand.  Wish my cats would allow themselves to be vacuumed.  My mother used to vacuum her favorite cat and he loved it.  Sure wouldn't try that with a vacuum that had real suction power but it was certainly an efficient process for the two of them :)

PJBoosinger May 31st, 2009 10:37:02 AM

That is one huge lab. Although the only place I've ever seen slim pretty labs is at an agility trial. I'm sure there are others. Maybe? Somewhere?

Seems like 3/4 of the shelties I meet are way too fat. We get them in rescue so fat they can barely walk. "But I only feed him what it says on the bag!" Oh yeah, and that's about 3 cups a day - that's why a 20 lb. dog weighs 40 lbs.! (my almost 20 lb. sheltie gets 1/4 c. dry food twice a day, a few green beans and occasional dry biscuits. She isn't hungry, she has stayed at the same weight for 9 years.)

I have explained to people who seem to honestly want the weight off their shelties that shelties were bred to be big workers - out herding sheep all day - and small eaters - being bred on the Shetland Islands where resources are limited. Instead the average pet is fed twice or three times what they need - and lies on the couch watching TV all day.

And I hear, "but she's not fat, she's just fluffy". Um, let me give her a bath - if she doesn't get smaller when wet, she's TOO FAT!

Or, she's only 28 lbs. that's not too big! No, if she were 2 inches taller and heavier boned it wouldn't be. As it is, she is about 5 lbs. over weight.

I don't know how to keep every dog the correct weight, but shelties I can do! Now if only someone would measure my food and get me to my correct weight...

Robinsdogs May 31st, 2009 10:37:05 AM

People also forget that animals are indivuduals and may burn fat differently. You can have two labs the same size in the beginning, feed the same amount and one gains or loses weight differently. Just like with people. We all know someone that can eat junkfood and stay skinny and another that can't even look at a frech frie without it landing on the hips. I for one am sick of seeing pets euthanised to youg because the owner refuses to see that the weight is a HUGE contributing factor to the pets declining health. And for people who can't not give their dog a treat? Go ahead, just make it a smaller and healthier treat!!! It isn't rocket science for pete sake. Tail wags, Marie http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com

Marie May 31st, 2009 11:26:14 AM

Oh and my comment for the "Perfect dog" would be, " well get ready to bury your perfect dog sooner than later because his weight WILL shorten his lifespan".

Marie May 31st, 2009 11:27:42 AM

Check out the Westminster Labradors from'09!  http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1009201

Look at all those dogs jiggling around the ring!  Discusting!  Who would want to haul that carcass up into a boat while hunting?  Might as well call them Labrangus...Looks as if they are being fattened for slaughter.  There's not a rib in sight!  The cruciates are wincing.  Tragic...

Sarah B. May 31st, 2009 09:46:55 PM

Re: Labs (and Rottweilers) specifically

I have always laid blame for the preponderance of fat Labs directly on the shoulders of the AKC, the show Labrador club, the show ring judges, and the breeders and handlers who enter OBESE DOGS and declare them "fit," and "ideal," displaying their jello-molds for the world to see.

This is specific to certain breeds.  There are many sins of the dog-show ring in general, but this one is not across the board.  (Beagles are also "easy keepers," but show-ring beagles don't usually look fat to me.)

When the alleged "experts" declare a pathology "ideal," they are directly to blame for others trying to emulate that pathology.

Re: Your body-image-dysmorphic-by-proxy client

There are men called "chubby chasers."  They are sexually attracted to overweight or obese women.  This is what they like, and I say, "It's all good" as long as they are not using the women in a caddish manner.  No different from another man who has a thing for redheads, or a woman who really digs bald guys.  We don't any of us choose what gets the jungle drums beating for us.

But there's a subset of chubby chasers called Feeders.  One will meet and marry an overweight woman and set to work getting her fatter.  They love to watch their fat wives eat and get bigger.  They weigh and measure the women.  The fatter the better.  To hell with her health, and if she'll eat more and get fatter if he undermines her self-confidence and makes her emotionally dependent through manipulative abuse, hey, whatever it takes to get the fattest wife possible in order to feed his sexual fetish.  Best of all is when she can't leave the house and is totally dependent on him, and he can just keep shoveling in the meringue until the day the fire department has to cut a wall out and hire a flatbed to take her to the hospital.  Or the morgue.

Your client is the dog-owner-equivalent of a "feeder" husband.  A passive-aggressive abuser.

I bet he brags about his dog's prodigious weight.

H. Houlahan June 1st, 2009 02:36:39 AM

"I bet he brags about his dog's prodigious weight."  " A passive-aggressive abuser."

When I read that, the image that popped into my mind was the insecure, ignorant man with his overly muscled pit bull walking in front of him on a big chain.  Ladies, I think you know what I mean.

KateH June 1st, 2009 12:36:02 PM

I think for the deluded or defensive owner, I would suggest the following:

-give out a generic, preprinted ready brochure on the dangers of obesity in the companion animal

-attach to it a personalized "prescription form" on which you indicate the pet's name, age, & weight & give your professional opinion on the animal's ideal weight. Write something like "This animal has been examined by me and is in my professional opinion overweight/obese. The owners and caregivers are instructed to undertake a gradual weight loss plan which includes a reduction in calorie intake and an increase in exercise (esp. swimming to preserve the joints.)

-include referral to an indoor doggy swimming pools if any are in your area

-if you had someone in your clinic or someone you could refer to who is willing to come up with weight loss plans for pets (under the general supervision of the animal's vet), refer them to this person as well

-include a standing offer for free weigh in at the clinic (no vet exam, just pop in to weigh)

-maybe a discounted follow up visit with a vet just to assess weight loss in 6 mos?

My feeling is that if you give them something in writing to read later, and give them some concrete suggestions (again in writing) they're more likely to think it through & follow up.

hornblower June 1st, 2009 02:16:23 PM

The same thing happens in falconry, some people want to have the biggest hawk they can, despite the fact that each bird has a weight where it will perform at it's peak, to low and not enough energy, to high not enough motivation, just right and look out.  When ever someone tells me the size of their bird and it is above average I ask how much it has caught.  10 to 1 the bird is fat and ineffective.  If it is killing it has poor field control and is a pain to fly.    I think it is an ego thing.  People have the idea that bigger is better, despite the fact that nature evolved these birds to a specific size, the best size.

Jacob L'Etoile June 1st, 2009 02:28:55 PM

My dogs are at 4 and 5, my cat's at 3 and my neighbours complain about how underfed he is. This is a cat who's fed essentially on demand, it's just he is extremely active. My poor labrador gets tired after a 10 minute run because she has so much weight, so they decide that she's wrecked, poor thing, and needs to be kept inside and fed more.

How do you get a dog to lose weight when it's being fed in 3 different houses, and they think there's no problem? It's not the owner who's doing it, she doesn't eat in our house (literally).

simba June 2nd, 2009 10:33:36 AM

simba - Simple. You need to keep your dog in your home & not let her run around the neighbourhood on her own. Then you can feed her what is right for her. Then, three times a day you leash her & go for a walk. Once a day, you play with her offleash in your yard or another safe offleash area. Once a week or more you take her to a park or beach. She's never to be out of your site & the problem will end.

hornblower June 2nd, 2009 07:09:23 PM

Hi Dr Khuly, I'm coming in late on this one, but I was wondering if I could have your thoughts on the new weight reduction drug Slentrol (dirlotapide, Pfizer). I attended a lunchtime presentation on it today. Apparently it's been in use for longer in the U.S. than in Canada?

I can't really see myself prescribing a drug like this until I know what other vets experience is, partly because it's hard enough to get people to buy good quality food, and they would have to do that before I'd even consider a weight reduction drug.

I dunno though. If they're really trying, with diet and exercise and the dog isn't losing weight, maybe it's worth a go.

brebis noire June 4th, 2009 09:31:12 PM

Body scoring by the amateur can be trickier than it seems. Looking at that to judge our cats I'd say that Snaffle is a 2 and Casper a 4 - in other words, Mr. Skinny (who's always eaten exactly what he wants and no more) needs to eat more and Fatso (who would eat all day if we let him) needs less food and more exercise - especially as he's asthmatic.

But no... the vet says Snaffle is a 'reasonable' weight and has examined Casper and deemed that his sizeable bulk (5.5kg / approx 12lbs at 11 months) is 'just a big cat' and 'all muscle'.

We were quite surprised - we were fully expecting to be gently told off for letting him get lardy. So I can see where these scores come in handy, but sometimes it really does take a vet visit to be absolutely sure.

Alex June 9th, 2009 09:07:56 AM

Alex, unless you cat's a Maine Coon, 12lbs at 11 months is overweight.  Your vet was trying more to not say anything even slightly rude, but that's a disservice to your cat even more than to you.  Heck, 12 lbs at any age, unless it's a Maine Coon, is not "just a big cat" but a big cat who should be monitored so he doesn't end up at 14lbs at 2, 16lbs at 4, and so on. 

KateH June 9th, 2009 06:24:01 PM

KateH - We've been going to this vet for 20 years. He's as blunt as blunt can be - polite, yes, but very clear about it. I've never known him to let kindness get in the way of a proper diagnosis.

We actually kept saying "but we thought he was fat"... "are you sure he's not overweight?" and he insisted he's fine and it's just muscle. We believed what you do before we went to see him (it was one of the reasons why we went!) and we continue weigh him regularly, feed him no more (slightly less, in fact) than the recommended amount and ensure he gets plenty of exercise both with us and with Snaffle.

It's precisely comments like that that underscore what I'm saying about a vet visit - it's NOT easy to tell based on what normal SHOULD be because you can misjudge it. It takes a professional to be absolutely sure.

I ought to point out these are the 4th and 5th cat I've had a hand in raising and none of them have approached this weight, which is why I was concerned in the first place.

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