I just finished up a round of research on the “mother of all emergencies”: bloat (AKA, gastric dilatation volvulus or “GDV” for short). I spent hours collecting all the papers and tallying up the stats as I prepared for an article that’ll appear in the next issue or two of The Bark (which is, incidentally, the best newsstand glossy to be had on the subject of all things dog).
In my preparations, I figured I’d take the issue and run with it a little, to rev my engines on the subject, as it were. That’s when I posted on GDV for my DailyVet blog over at PetMD. Interestingly, the subject proved controversial––nothing I ever expected from a staid medical topic like bloat.
But it wasn’t the disease itself that inspired dissent, rather it was all about those recommendations large dog owners are used to hearing when it comes to what they can do to minimize their dogs’ risk.
You may think you know what to avoid when it comes to bloat, I’d suggested, but maybe you’ve been relying on Dr. Breeder, Dr. Neighbor or Dr. Google for your bloat do’s and dont’s. Maybe––just maybe––I can teach you a new thing or two on the topic:
According to all the literature (at least six good studies over the last couple of decades) dogs most at risk include those who...
#1 hail from large or giant breeds (though any dog of any breed can bloat)
#2 are middle-aged or older (though any dog of any age can bloat)
#3 have first-degree relatives who have bloated (littermates or parents)
#4 are speed-demon eaters
#5 dine from raised food bowls
All of those recomendations on feeding twice daily or steering clear of exercise before or after eating? The issue of deep-chested conformations, leanness, meanness, inflammatory bowel disease-links and internal ligament lengths? No concrete evidence...not yet, anyhow.
Though it’s a highly treatable disease, bloat is a killer. I figure that’s why people worry so much over the risk factors––especially the ones they CAN control. Maybe that explains the popularity of the bloat post. But that doesn’t explain why I caught so much flak over the issue of feeding from raised food bowls.
I received several emails on the subject, expressing confusion and/or hoping to correct me on the subject. I was even questioned by a couple of readers as to whether I intended to say just the opposite on the subject of raised bowls. It appears they’d been previously advised in the reverse––as in, feeding from elevated bowls reduces the risk of bloat, instead of elevating it.
Then, lo and behold, The Bark reviewed my submission and sent an email asking me to qualify my statement on raised food bowls (by explaining that this finding was from just one study, albeit by far the largest of its kind). So you know, any addendum that helps explain the research is always fine by me, but in this case it also served to deepen the mystery as to why raised food bowls raise hackles––if that’s indeed what’s happening here.
So what is it about recommending against raised bowl-feeding to reduce bloat-risk that gets everyone going?
Is it that doing so defies conventional wisdom? Maybe so, since some believe raising bowls provides a more “natural” eating position which can help a variety of other conditions from neck pain to ophthalmologic diseases. Is it because it’s hard to change our way of thinking once the opposite belief has already been widely disseminated? Or is it that feeding from a height makes us feel as if we’re doing something positive, whereas feeding conventionally doesn’t offer us that same satisfaction?
In any case, here’s the finding in the largest study of its kind (1,634 dogs), one you can read and dispute at your leisure:
“Cumulative incidence of GDV during the study was 6% for large breed and giant breed dogs. Factors significantly associated with an increased risk of GDV were increasing age, having a first-degree relative with a history of GDV, having a faster speed of eating, and having a raised feeding bowl. Approximately 20 and 52% of cases of GDV among the large breed and giant breed dogs, respectively, were attributed to having a raised feed bowl.” (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217:1492–1499)
Despite the impressive nature of these stats, it’s true that this is but one study, the only one that ever attempted to discern whether raising a bowl made any difference whatsoever. We have no conflicting research. Not yet.
Though we keep looking for clues, preventing bloat remains one of veterinary medicine’s most elusive grails. More research needs to be done, certainly, but in the meantime, what can I say? Raise your bowls at your own risk...for now, anyway.
Add Comment92 Comments
Dr. Khuly, this really doesn't have to do with raised bowls, but I do have a question. There's one GDV preventative I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) has heard of.
My parents breed GSD breeders, and they work with/under the guidance of another breeder. They are huge sticklers about the temperature of the dogs' water. Only cool to luke warm water will do. If it is cold, they say, the dogs may bloat. I don't know if this is something their vet said, or the breeder they work with, or exactly where they got it, but I have to say I've never heard of this bloat preventative anywhere else.
So I guess what I'm wondering is...have you heard of this? Is there any truth to the idea that there is a correlation between cold drinking water and GDV?
Lauren (Michigan Pet Lover) July 25th, 2009 10:53:09 AM
It's the first I've heard of it. But then, I live in Florida where the water's never cold. Never saw it mentioned in any study, either.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 25th, 2009 10:59:14 AM
There's a story that's been going around in email, that claims to be the tragic story of a dog who bloated after being fed ice water or ice cubes on a hot day at a conformation show, and promptly bloated. I'll see if I can locate a version of it for you. For me, the story has the feel of urban legend, including being an email without the names of the principals included, but maybe you'll see some meaningful details in it that I'm missing.
Lis July 25th, 2009 11:11:20 AM
Oh what a dilemma this poses for Tripawds, as we have always recommended raised feeders to help new amputee dogs with balance, especially for front leg amputees. Is there something better we should be advising our pawrents to use? Thanks for any insight.
Jim & Rene July 25th, 2009 11:13:36 AM
Here it is: Ice water and bloat
As you can see, this story has been making the rounds since at least 2007.
Lis July 25th, 2009 11:17:55 AM
This is interesting to me because, well, I have heard all the arguments for using raised bowls. I wasn't interested in a raised bowl, until one of my dogs (60 lb, so reasonably big, and 12 yrs + kinda creaky) stopped eating off the floor. I couldn't get her to eat unless I brought the food up to her mouth by hand. I tried stacking books to raise the bowl up to her, and she started eating again, so I got her a raised bowl. I don't seem to have much choice; she won't or can't eat out of a bowl on the floor. Now I'm kind of worried--not too terribly, as she eats VERY slowly, but still.
Galadriel July 25th, 2009 12:12:24 PM
This is tough for me to swallow. I wonder what proportion of those 52% of dogs in this case study would have very likely experienced GDV with or without the raised bowl? Regardless, 52% isn't something to ignore. Add one more thing to worry about to the list.
Alex July 25th, 2009 12:43:56 PM
Lis: Yeah, smacks of urban legend. Just because one vet has a potentially off-the-cuff comment to contribute (which may or may not have been delivered exactly the way the owners report), that doesn't mean it's true, right or responsible to disseminate this kind of anecdotal information in such an evangelical way. But it's also true this dog may have bloated because of ice water. It's not been studied as a risk factor as far as I can tell. And if it has, it's not ranked among those that have been proven the test of science as we know it today. Um, and bloat is NOT the second leading cause of death in dogs, as the blurb reports. I can think of at least five that best it, just off the top of my head.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 25th, 2009 01:01:49 PM
I thought I read something some time ago that the issue with the raised bowls is that it allows a dog to eat faster. I feed one of my dogs using a raised feeder but the bowl itself has a bump to it's design that slows down her eating.
BeckyH July 25th, 2009 01:08:11 PM
Jim and Rene: For feeding dogs working hard to battle another condition, I would not alter my stance one bit. Feed from a raised bowl. This goes for dogs who have neck pain, orthopedic creakiness, megaesophagus, etc.
...and Galadriel: It's perhaps the case that slow eaters need not worry about the raised bowl issue. I'm not sure how these two were correlated (speed and raised bowls) but it's likely the case that a dog that's more comfortable eating at a height due to orthopedic challenges should be "indulged."
Dr. Patty Khuly July 25th, 2009 01:08:56 PM
I agree that the comfort issue is probably why people who feed their dogs from raised bowls are so reluctant to change. Plus, the findings in the Purdue study are all correlative - not that they should be ignored, but we still don't know WHY dogs bloat - i.e. what actually causes it.
So for now I'll keep feeding my dogs from raised bowls, just because they are more comfortable that way. However, since I feed raw, they do get a fair proportion of their food on the ground - they usually lay down to eat their meaty bones. So I guess I do it both ways :-)
Barb July 25th, 2009 01:41:25 PM
I have not read the complete study but unless you can quantify that the raised food bowls are actual contributors and not incidental I would be skeptical.
Superstitious parameters probably could only be quantified if you did the same study with the same animals with raised bowls and then with bowls on the ground.
The problem with many studies is that the set up can set up a bias--even if it is unintentional.
Look forward to reading the entire article.
Ark Lady July 25th, 2009 02:29:23 PM
Ark Lady and Barb: Too true. All studies on bloat's risk factors have only purported to indicate correlation, not causation, and they're not definitive, of course. But 52% is awfully huge. Too big to discount out of hand, and it's all we have to offer..for now.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 25th, 2009 02:41:59 PM
The summary you quote clearly says association, not causality. Does the study, as well? Because to be associated with is not to cause.
Maria July 25th, 2009 03:22:45 PM
Dr. Khuly,
In our daycare/boarding facility, we have a policy of not allowing dogs to play for an hour and a half after eating because we have been consistently advised to do so. To me, it is common sense that a speed demon eater who goes out to play after eating is only encouraging the onset of bloat. My impression is that the studies did not authentically look at this issue, wouldn't you agree? I think I will stick with this common sense factor.
Carl July 25th, 2009 03:46:07 PM
I too have read the article that giving a dog ice causes bloat. I checked with the Chief of Internal Medicine at a nationally renowned Veterinary Teaching Hospital for his input. The Vet said that he always gave his dogs an ice cube or two. The point is moderation. In addition, the dog in the ice article first drank excessive amounts of water which could have been a major factor in causing the bloat. I know many owners of giant breeds who have used raised food bowls for years and never experienced bloat with their dogs. As Carl said "it's common sense that a speed demon eater who goes out to play after eating is only encouraging the onset of bloat....stick with this common sense factor." Amen!
Common sense: Don't feed your dog right after a period of play or work. Let the dog settle down. Don't let your dog run and play (or work) right after a feeding. Don't let your dog gulped excessive amounts of water. As for speed-eaters, I have one that just about inhales the food! I've found that a bowl called BrakeFast works quite well. I got the medium size for all three of my dogs. One, 100+ lb GSD and two 65 Lb Labs. That size works great for the GSD and my Lab that's a slower eater. However, I think I should have bought the small for my "gulper". I don't know if that would slow her down more or not. But, the bowl I now have has slowed her down some.
Vi July 25th, 2009 04:20:55 PM
I tend to agree on the commonsensical points made above. Eating and exercise should be punctuated by rest periods. Why risk it? And the ice as well. And a bowl chock-full of ice isn't fun for most dogs, anyway.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 25th, 2009 04:59:35 PM
Does anyone have suggestions for water-gulpers? My dane has always been one to drink her entire bowl of water, just because it's there. We have to interrupt her and tell her to lay down, and when away, only leave her with small amounts. She's been pexied so I'm not panicked about bloat, but the gulping makes her need to urinate urgently if we don't pay attention.
Sarah July 25th, 2009 05:33:08 PM
When I saw the title in my inbox, I was soooo hoping you would address the raised bowl issue.
When we got our Golden Retriever (many, many years ago) my vet advised me to raise his food dish. We did - for about six months. At that point I read an article (I want to say that it was in Dog Fancy, but it could have been Dog World or some other such publication) that referenced what I assume to be this study, advising owners of bloat prone dogs to ditch the raised dishes.
Ever since, we have chosen to feed from the floor, and I go out of my way whenever possible to inform people of the fact that there is little proof one way or the other, but at this point the evidence leans slightly towards avoidance.
My retriever was a snarfer of food, but he ate raw, so we worried very little. For reassurance we always fed him using tools to slow him down. His water bowl in later years was one designed to slow down his water intake as well.
Today all of my dogs eat using the Brakefast bowls (which, by the way, we highly recommend!). The few giant breeds we have had through the house have all eaten lying down - which I consider to be a more natural position anyhow.
Until there is a study that says otherwise, we will continue to recommend avoiding raised dishes.
Kim July 25th, 2009 05:33:42 PM
Sarah - try the DrinkBetter (sorry, not the DrinkEasy as I suggested earlier). My biggest complaint is that it is SMALL, so we have to fill it quite frequently. Also, I prefer to use metal or ceramic as opposed to plastic, but you can't win em all I suppose. Check it out here: http://www.contech-inc.com/products/drinkbetter/
Kim July 25th, 2009 05:36:12 PM
I wonder what proportion of those 52% of dogs in this case study would have very likely experienced GDV with or without the raised bowl?
The study -- which was HUGE and is more than 10 years old, so it's seriously shocking to me this is still freaking people out or anyone at Bark needed Dr. Patty to back it up -- controlled for the fact that all the dogs in the study were from bloat-prone breeds and had owners who were doing things to try to prevent bloat in the first place. None of the study's authors claimed they'd demonstrated causation, but the correlation is pretty compelling and shouldn't be ignored -- even though apparently it has been, given what is being posted here. :(
Christie Keith July 25th, 2009 06:42:27 PM
I lost my German Shepherd to bloat in April. I found him in time to get him to the vet but he died on the operating table. The only risk my dog may have had from the "list" would be he was a large dog. He didn't eat fast and he wasn't old. Is it just possible that there isn't a real reason and that it just happens to some dogs? Like things happen to some people? My mother twice needed surgery to have her intestines untwisted and they could never tell her why they twisted in the first place. I know I would love to have a definitive answer but for this I'm not sure there will ever be one. All I know it was a very sad thing to watch, both my dog and my mother.
Jan July 25th, 2009 06:59:10 PM
What about prophylactic (laparoscopic) gastropexies, Dr Khuly? We do them, and for mine, they are a great preventative option.
AlexH July 25th, 2009 09:37:36 PM
"So what is it about recommending against raised bowl-feeding to reduce bloat-risk that gets everyone going?" Think you've already hit on the answer - because it puts many of us in a lose-lose situation. Both my dogs were inclined to inhale their food as puppies and it got worse as they got older. I just plain found it disturbing so found ways to encourage them to slow down and enjoy their food. Hadn't thought about it but it may be part of the reason they didn't start packing on weight until we moved into the condo. In addition to other factors, the stress may have made them fearful they might never see food and gobbling and over-eating would be natural reactions to that. I was able to slow them down again but, when my Lab wanted to eat from her bowl while it was on my lap and refused to eat when it was on the floor, I tried raised bowls. That kept her eating but I had to discourage inhaling by my Shiba. If they're clearly having trouble eating from a bowl on the floor, what are you going to do? Then you come along and say: Don't use raised bowls. Well, hang it. Now I'm going to feel like a bad owner either way!
PJBoosinger July 25th, 2009 11:45:34 PM
Jan: If there's one thing I can't abide it's the notion that anyone can prevent bloat using simple risk factor avoidance. ANY dog of ANY breed can bloat at ANY time independent of any of these risk factors. You did nothing to cause the bloat. Your dog just bloated. These things happen.
Nonetheless I do want to address the gastropexy issue. ALL large and giant breed dogs should be "tacked." This is a simple surgery [even I can do] and as some commenter above have suggested, it keeps the mortality rate from bloat down by preventing the stomach from twisting. In a gastropexy, the stomach is simply adhered to the body wall. Easy during a spay. Laparascopically doable with excellent results.
Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that gastropexy saves lives. And it's something we can all do for our large and giant breed dogs. According to our current knowledge, it's definitely worth the anesthetic risk for bloat-prone breeds. For others? Not so much. But, again, ANY breed can bloat.
And thanks, Christie, for the clarification on the study's overwhelmingly impressive nature. It's hard to describe how piddly most veterinary studies are in comparison to this one but you managed it just fine. ;-)
Dr. Patty Khuly July 26th, 2009 08:08:33 AM
Sarah: I like Lixit faucet attachments for gulpers. It's impossible to gulp water with one since it trickles out in an easy stream. It's usually raised, though. Dogs may ingest air as they drink. Is THAT a risk factor? We don't know. The point is that you've done what you can given the knowledge we have by having her "pexied." Kudos.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 26th, 2009 08:12:53 AM
Yeah, Lis, that does look like urban legend to me. I looked on Snopes.com and unfortunately they don't seem to have anything on it.
Not that there's anything wrong with giving dogs water that's room temp. It's just that I've come across info about bloat, risk factors and such, Animal Planet has covered it, I've seen recommendations on the internet (and yes, including raised food bowls), but never have I actually seen anything about ice or cold water being a risk factor. So when I saw Dr. K's post about bloat, I had to ask.
Did some googling, and the only thing I've found are duplicates of what Lis posted.
If the original story was true (i.e. a dog bloated, and the vet made an ice comment), I can understand and appreciate that the owner would want to spread the word to prevent the same thing happening to other dogs, but at the same time I'm wondering if it's led to needless paranoia.
Lauren (Michigan Pet Lover) July 26th, 2009 11:06:57 AM
Dr. Khuly thank you for mentioning dogs with neck pain or orthopedic issues, I have a new senior in my pack and I am debating where to feed her. She has arthritis in her spine but she seems ok eating from the floor. My other arthritic dog eats from a raised bowl but he is a bloat survivor and had his stomach tacked years ago so I believe his bloat risk is lower and the comfort factor of a raised bowl makes sense for him.
As far as I have been able to learn, the actual cause of bloat is still not clear. So while association does not equal causation, it's the best I have to work with until there is better information. I was glad to learn about the raised bowl findings even though they contradict what I was told years ago. It it just one piece of a puzzle and I don't think we can see the whole picture yet.
Anne July 26th, 2009 02:38:23 PM
This is the first I've heard of raised feeding being tied to bloat, rather than the other way around. So, I think that may be why you've gotten so much push back. It seems that, at least for some groups, raised feeding is so ingrained in their education on bloat prevention that it's anathema to suggest the opposite.
I recently adopted a Great Dane, and the rescue group told me repeatedly to do raised feeding with her. They put the fear of God into me when it comes to bloat, and I've been trying to diligently follow all their instructions (raised feeding, no exercise one hour before or after, etc.). In fact, they scared me so much that when they pointed out that my dog isn't as deep-chested as some (i.e., may not be as much at risk), I immediately thought "that may be, but I'm not taking any chances..."
But, they also suggested that I feed her in her crate (either raised or while she's seated) to minimize her activity/ limit chance of bloat. So, that seems to somewhat contradict the strict adherence to raised feeding.
Posey July 26th, 2009 04:05:41 PM
When I hear so much contrary information on the issue of feeding from raised bowls, I've got to wonder if this information was initially disseminated in a backwards fashion. How can so many breeders and owners of bloat-prone breeds have the exact opposite information in hand?
I also can't help thinking that veterinary medicine has missed the boat here. It's OUR responsibility to get the word out on this issue. It's shocking to me that a Great Dane rescue would not have access to a veterinarian who could change its fundamental approach to this issue.
As Christie said, this information is not so new that we should be still in information transition mode. It should have been readily accepted by now that raised feeding bowls are a statistical risk factor, regardless of whether we know what causes bloat or not...regardless of whether we know we don't have the whole picture here.
After all, we're not exactly sure why some obese cats get diabetes and some don't. But we all accept that obesity is a risk factor based on the correlation-based stats, even when causation eludes us. Sure, we have far more info on feline diabetes and obesity. The pathogenesis of diabetes is far better understood. But is it fundamentally any different than how we currently understand raised food bowls and bloat? It shouldn't be, I'd argue, not while we have no other information to go on––especially because we have no other information to go on.
Again, I'm not saying that if your dog has a good reason to eat from this position that he shouldn't. But you need to be aware of the trade-offs so you can make a rational, educated decision.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 27th, 2009 08:13:06 AM
"When I hear so much contrary information on the issue of feeding from raised bowls, I've got to wonder if this information was initially disseminated in a backwards fashion. How can so many breeders and owners of bloat-prone breeds have the exact opposite information in hand?"
I have no idea, but TONS of people still believe the exact opposite -- that raised bowls reduce bloat. I've worked at pet stores for over a year now and people continue to come in and request raised food bowls for their "giant bloat-prone dogs". I attempt to steer them to BrakeFast bowls instead and tell them that studies have suggested the exact OPPOSITE is true when it comes to raised food bowls.
I've always felt that the stretching was -good- for my dogs as they ate. If I'm not mistaken, the same debate exists in the horse world -- raised wall feeders vs. feeding on the ground. Some people feel feeding on the ground is healthier, more natural, and encourages stretching of various parts of the front assembly. Others worry about the horse inhaling or eating sand or dust, and therefore feed up high -- in wall feeders and hay nets. Gulping air can result in colic, as can ingesting enough sand or dust, so what can you do?
Cat July 27th, 2009 08:29:23 AM
I agree that we probably feed from raised bowls to make us feel better. I am another confused soul, as I have always fed from a raised bowl and I have had 3 Danes bloat. I would like to switch to floor feeding, however, my older Dane has sever arthritis and she is not comfortable eating from the floor and since she boated already and is tacked, I am hoping all will be well. But I will in the future, I will feed my dogs from the floor.
One of the questions I have is how high is raised, is it ok to raise just a little or should the bowl be on the floor? Does anyone have an answer for that, is it depenedent on how tall the dog is?
I had a female Dane and 3 of her pups and neither the Mom or Dad bloated but all 3 children bloated at an older age, so I definitely think age has alot to do with it too. The Mom lived to be 10 and passed away from heart problems and the Dad died at the age of 11, from old age and neither one of them bloated. What I usually tell everyone in rescue is do your best, follow the best guidelines and your heart and more than anything, bloat is a hit and miss situation and don't blame yourself when it happens. Be prepared.
When I had my first Dane bloat and I spoke to the dr. he said you can take pecautions, however, no one really knows why dogs bloat and I think that is the truth for now.
Pat July 27th, 2009 09:04:48 AM
I personally think most of the "preventative" options are a much of a muchness. Numerous studies have failed to agree on the causes of bloat, the only one that stands out is deep chested breeds and genetics, and prior splenic or gastric torsion.
For me, those are the only knowns.
So trying to give advice on how to avoid bloat is asking for trouble. For mine, it's tack, tack, tack. And try not to breed from those who have GDV (troublesome as most breeding animals who have it are middle aged or older, and have already bred litters so the genes have already been passed on).
Tack, tack, tack.
AlexH July 27th, 2009 09:18:41 AM
I think that "eating from a raised bowl" needs some greater qualification. The question is how high is the bowl raised? Raiseed to chest level? Or raised only high enough so the dog doesn't need to "reach" (i.e. stretch it's neck) or splay it's forelegs to get down to the bowl,?
In the above article it said: "Is it that doing so defies conventional wisdom? Maybe so, since some believe raising bowls provides a more "natural" eating position which can help a variety of other conditions from neck pain to ophthalmologic diseases." I don't know what's "natural" about raising the food. Once a wolf kills it's prey does it then pick it up and place it over a log or stump so as to eat "naturally"? Or, does it simply lower it's head and start eating off of the ground level carcass? Some may argue that dogs are not wolves, and that's true. But for how many years in the evolution have dogs continued to eat food that is at ground level?
Personally, and I have a dog who has bloated several times and been operated on also, I believe that observation should disclose whether or not your dog is eating comfortable from the floor, then leave it there. But, if you wish to raise the food bowl, then I'd raise it in small incriments 'til your dog seems comfortable. Dogs, in my opinion, eat most naturally from a lowered head position and downwardly inclined neck.
Am I right? Is the opposition right? I think the jury is still out. But for my money I'll keep the bowl down at or near ground level.
Quahogwi July 27th, 2009 11:13:47 AM
I'm with Christie -
I'm AMAZED that the people at BARK didn't know of this study. I thought the news of reverting on the original "raised bowls lessens the risk of bloat" argument was pretty ubiquitous...
Sarah July 27th, 2009 11:26:30 AM
Dr. K,
How many ads for raised bowls were in the last issue of The Bark?
Robert July 27th, 2009 11:45:23 AM
I wonder why GSD was not a breed that was represented since I've always heard that they are considered a"high" risk breed? And I'm curious as to how mixed breeds would fare.
Raw food was mentioned in an earlier post and is one of the two areas that I often see brought up anecdotally when conversing about bloat: raw fed and low/no vax, both being mentioned as reasons a particular breeder has dogs that do not bloat (b/c s/he raises them on raw and/or no or limited vax).
Any thoughts?
Bonnie July 27th, 2009 01:36:49 PM
Sarah: In The Bark's defense, they're well-aware of their readers' hot buttons. When they want something qualified it usually means they're right on the money in terms of the mail they're going to get in the wake of any given piece. Asking me to hang onto this point long enough to give it more weight seems to be a likely explanation for their suggestion. In any case, I'm happy they did. As it is, I'm still fielding "unhappy" mail from the article I wrote on cruciate repairs and the Tightrope method. :-(
Dr. Patty Khuly July 27th, 2009 02:09:53 PM
Robert: You're a cynical bastard. I like how you think, though.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 27th, 2009 02:11:03 PM
Bonnie: As to raw...Sadly, there's been no research to demonstrate that it's a superior method of feeding in any way–-much less for preventing bloat. Beyond the potential for increasing the propensity for food-borne disease, there's no evidence to show it's not superior, either.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 27th, 2009 02:13:53 PM
As part of my blog at a daily newspaper (www.rgj.com/mostlydogs), I asked the manager of a after-hours animal emergency center a couple of years ago whether ice cubes were linked to bloat. Here was his response:
"Ice water can be given to dogs. But I would not recommend it. I have no problem with ice water in limited quantities but cool, room temperature water is the best by far. I wish we knew the cause for bloat but nobody knows. And the drinking of ice water is not a documented cause of bloating in dogs."
Mark July 27th, 2009 02:37:21 PM
On another note, my wife's sister has two Great Danes. One has to go in for surgery for something, and her vet recommended that her stomach be stitched or stapled into place so that it supposedly can't get twisted. This preventative action apparently is common for this vet. Anybody have any experience with it?
Mark July 27th, 2009 02:46:03 PM
When my doc asks me about my middle age belly bulge I'll explain to him that my wife no longer makes me eat off the floor.
Bob Jones July 27th, 2009 04:05:34 PM
Dr Khuly - I'm also surprised that the Dane rescue hasn't encountered a vet (or someone else knowledgeable) who advised them of the study. Out of curiousity, I did a search on Great Dane rescues in the US, and most of those I pulled up urge owners to do raised feeding.
Posey July 27th, 2009 05:34:46 PM
Posey: Telling.
Bob: Brilliant. Again. You have a talent for those quips. Keep 'em coming.
Mark: Yes, that's called a gastropexy and it is very common. It's my number one recommendation for large and giant breed dogs. It's also too often overlooked by veterinarians and/or declined by owners due to cost and/or anesthetic risk concerns. Thanks for bringing it up again in this discussion. I, too, am guilty of not mentioning its benefits enough for those who own dogs outside the "giant" category.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 27th, 2009 06:57:12 PM
Dr. K,
Before owning a vet hospital with my wife/doctor I worked in the publishing field. Advertisers pay the bills and are to be protected. It's not cynicism; it's business.
Though, I do like that you like how I think.
Robert
Robert July 27th, 2009 07:06:30 PM
Late to the discussion, but I had an 80 lb. pittie-mix that bloated at the end of his life (12 + yrs). It was never a complete revolution as 2x, he was saved via tubing. He was not a good candidate for surgery as he had other organ issues, one was enlarged heart & liver. He was put on reglan & my memory escapes me as to the other meds.
The three incidences occurred within weeks of one another. He was always a fast gulper & drinker. After the first bloat, I divided his meals by two, raised the dish, never fed before or after exercise (which he didn't do much of at that age anyways), and I was given the suggestion to monitor gulping of water, keep it lukewarm pre& post meal, by the veterinarian.
This was in 1991.
Barbara A. Albright/NH July 27th, 2009 09:16:29 PM
"large and giant breed" Definition of "large" please and clarification too please. I've always been told that Labs are "medium" but I've ended up with 2 that, in top shape, were 85 pounders. If the "breed" is considered "medium" but the individual is "large", which should be used for decision making "generally"?
Hm, wonder what my new vet is going to think when I ask for a 2 hour consultation and drag my laptop as well as the dogs in with me. I'm developing quite a long list of questions and concerns...
PJBoosinger July 28th, 2009 01:00:48 AM
PJB: Labs are considered a large breed by most standards. I happen to know someone who just had her flatcoat retriever's stomach "tacked" along with her spay. It's what the research recommends at this point.
As to those asking about the height of raised bowls: Bowls raised for the purpose of orthopedic comfort (the reason I usually recommend this feeding method) should typically be lifted to a height that allows a dog to maintain his neck roughly parallel to his spine as he eats. Using an adjustable-height bowl holder, as in the contraption in the picture above, is great for those who want to achieve the most comfortable height through trial and error.
It should also be noted that for dogs with megaesophagus, feeding from an even greater height is recommended. The Bailey Chair is one such contraption. It's aim is to keep the dog's esophagus perpendicular to the floor:
Dr. Patty Khuly July 28th, 2009 07:56:26 AM
Please tell me that electrical cord goes to something other than that chair (that looks a wee bit like it came from medieval Europe).
PJBoosinger July 28th, 2009 10:38:27 PM
PJB: I noticed that in the pic, too, but I promise you that every Bailey Chair I've ever seen has NO electrical component. ;-)
Dr. Patty Khuly July 29th, 2009 07:35:34 AM
Hi,
My Lab is going in for a lap spay on Friday. It sounds like folks here are recommending the gastropexy and it would be a good time to do it I guess.
She is rising 3 years this month, she's a very hot, high-bred field type Lab, very lean, very long-bodied and long-legged, narrow-chested (for a Lab anyway) and only 53 pounds. She is running mid-level hunt tests (Senior and Seasoned) so she is in hard training and typically runs 150-200 yard marks. She is a fast eater but not as fast as she used to be. I used the Break Fast bowl for awhile and she slowed down a good deal, quit using it because it was plastic and I sterilize all my dogs' food and water bowls with boiling water and it was warping it . . . .
What do y'all think? My vet mentioned the gastropexy but thought she wouldn't be a typical bloat risk but left it up to me . . . I am undecided.
I probably should add that the reason she's being spayed is because she tested 'affected' for the EIC gene. Had one episode at 8 months in a very stressful training situation and has never gone down again.
I'm also one of the off-the-floor feeders because it was recommended! (it's just like they used to tell us to make the babies sleep on their stomachs to prevent SIDS, now they're telling everybody to put them on their backs for the same reason, sheesh!) My older Lab will be 10 in March, she's a more typical Lab in build but has had no problems . . . .
All input appreciated . . .
Martha July 29th, 2009 07:12:33 PM
Martha: Good for you for having her tested for EIC (exercise induced collapse). Every field Lab should be tested, IMO. And yes, you should have her "pexied." Ask your local board-certified veterinary surgeon. I'm sure he/she will agree.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 29th, 2009 11:46:00 PM
Martha, Labradors are not a really really high risk breed so they are not a breed that I push the surgery for. However, they are also not a low risk breed either. We do see some with GDV, but possibly reflects breed's popularity.
However, if you are in there for a lap spey, it is takes minimal extra work to do a lap-gastropexy. It'd be infinitely cheaper, and less invasive to the dog to do it at the same time.
If it were my Lab, I'd get her pexied, FWIW.
They recover very very well - amazingly well. Traditional preventative gastopexy via open incision or even gastropexy at time of bloat surgery (after GDV has just been corrected), just seems so barbaric in the recovery times by comparison.
AlexH July 30th, 2009 03:38:21 AM
AlexH: I agree with you on that point: I don't routinely discuss pexies for Labs and other non-giant breed dogs. But I should. I've been beating myself up on that one lately. Perhaps that's because I assume I'm being lazy by not discussing every possible point before I spay and neuter (the ideal time, of course). And I hate laziness! Considering that I offer hip rads on every large dog spay and neuter I might as well add the gastropexy discussion to the list. Thanks for the light bulb moment.
Dr. Patty Khuly July 30th, 2009 07:59:57 AM
Hi and thanks to all -
The ether seems to have swallowed my post, I apologize if this is a duplicate.
Dr. Khuly, thanks for the hat tip on the EIC. It was VERY disappointing because her hips, elbows, eyes, CNM etc. all checked out fine and she is a dynamite retriever and royally bred. One of Mary Howley's dogs. I was hoping to start a good line of retrievers with her here in GA. Oh, well. She will just enjoy herself continuing to pick up ducks, and we won't have to worry about her coming in season on the weekend of a hunt test.
AlexH, anything that shortens the recovery time is a plus with this loony Lab. My older dog is considerably more mellow, but we had a terrible time keeping her quiet after her spay (which was 9 years ago and NOT lap). I'd tie one hind leg to her ear if I wasn't afraid she would strangle herself (j/k).
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. I checked the risk factors/correlations for bloat, and this young lady may not be in the high risk group but she's knocking on the door. As long as we're in there, best take care of it.
Thanks again.
Martha July 30th, 2009 11:52:33 AM
Very interesting discussion. I was especially interested in seeing the Bailey chair - I will have to remember to recommend that to patients I see with mega-E. Seems like a lifesaver - and a back-saver as well for those folks who have to hoist up the big ones after feeding.
I did not note any discussion about the study (JAVMA, I think) that noted that one of the only factors that could be scientifically correlated with GDV was temperament - i.e. dogs with what their owners describe as a 'nervous' disposition were more prone to experience an episode of GDV. Hopefully I didn't miss it in the comments - this has been a great and lively discussion
I think this correlates with what we see in the hospital - many dogs will bloat while hosptialized for something else, or while boarding - I think they get nervous and worked up and actually swallow air. I think this starts the ball rolling that ends in the OR, or the freezer for those unfortunate few.
I am going to post a segment on GDV sometime soon on my blog on petconnect.com - I would invite you all to come on by and contribute to the discussion. This disease is terrifying for pet owners and has a huge impact in terms of animal health and suffering.
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