I'm having trouble picturing your house and yard. If the animals are in back, definitely fence in the back, and also make the front look pretty. If there's a neighborhood homeowner association or other neighborhood committee where people get together regularly and bitch about local problems, start attending, both to show that you are a Part of Your Community and also to make sure that you aren't on the agenda. Fires are easier to put out when they are small. And if people already know you and think of you as a neighbor and friend, if you end up needing to apply for that variance or permit, they will be less likely to file objections.

Susan July 7th, 2009 11:08:58 AM

I have 5 dogs, I'm only allowed 3.  I'm just keeping a low profile.  Hope no one stops to count.  I don't walk them on the street, I load them up in the car and go to a park.  I go with "it's easier to ask forgiveness then permission"

Betsy July 7th, 2009 12:20:59 PM

I once had ten cats in an apartment - three of my own, two belonging to a relative who was waiting for a new home to be built (several months), plus a semi-feral mom and her litter of four.  So for a solid 4 months, I was sorely in violation of my renter's agreement, and even when it was just my three, that was two over the limit.  I kept the place spotless, scooped litterboxes at least twice daily, vacuumed like crazy, and had a Febreze noticeable in just about every outlet.  Bottom line - I kept my mouth shut, kept the cats out of the windows, and made sure to not draw any attention to myself...you'd never know it was a cat zoo unless one came out to purr "hi", lol.   So that's my advice - do what you can to make your animals (and all their trappings) as invisible as possible, and stay on everybody's good side.  I don't even think I'd bother with local governement with regards to zoning or permits or what have you...if they don't see it you way, you've just informed them of your "crime". 

anna July 7th, 2009 12:24:59 PM

Yes, definitely look into a variance for your animal family.  Animal control will want to talk with you, look at the facilities you have for your animals, possibly look at vet records for their treatment, and talk with the neighbors (about noise, smell, etc).  As long as the neighbors like you, you'd probably pass with flying colors.

In our fair city, families are allowed to keep up to 10 hens but no roosters.  We've observed the occasional donkey and there's a mule farm smack in the middle of town.  We're trying to figure out if goats are allowed or not but the city doesn't currently seem to have any regulations about goats - when we get an appropriately sized lot, we'll probably get one and see what, if anything, the city wants to say about it.

Meri July 7th, 2009 12:25:32 PM

And for what it's worth, I turned over the keys at the end of my lease agreement with that place in better shape than when I took it, with all of my deposits returned to me. :)

anna July 7th, 2009 12:26:15 PM

My city doesn't have (or at least it didn't 6 years ago when I asked) any limit laws for pets - and I'll fight one if they try.  A woman who's lived here for 40+ years has a peacock and a rooster (although I haven't heard him lately), and someone else used to keep two golden pheasants.  I have a yard that's big enough for 2 pygmy goats, and could probably get away with keeping them if I planted more screening shubs along the fenceline.  Unfortunately, my dogs (was 5, now 4) would never cooperate with that - the barking alone would be a major problem. 

And it's the barking of other people's dogs that drives me nuts.  That's such an obvious sign of not taking proper care of 1 dog (when it's outside for 8+ hours barking fairly regularly, not just a 10 minute potty break which includes 8 minutes of barking at wildlife or other dogs), that if anyone ever tried to say I couldn't keep my 4 - for whatever stupid reason they might try - I'd end up on the news - 'Resident shouts down entire council' or something.

Personally, I'd almost want to set up the spare bedroom as an iguana room, and turn the basement workshop into a ferret funhouse (and those things I doubt would ever give a neighbor pause) - but the money isn't there - oh, and my friend (who actually owns the house) would never go along with it.  however, if I won the lottery......oh, I'd leave this 'burb in a heartbeat and get enough land for several horses, Highland cattle, goats, dogs, cats, ferrets, and an iguana!

KateH July 7th, 2009 02:16:27 PM

Were these laws in effect when you got the goats and chickens? Did you know of the laws when you got the goats and chickens?

If a law exists that you don't like, do something to change it. Why were these laws created to begin with? Does the original percieved threat still exist? Have times and alleged dangers changed enough? Re-house the critters and work to change it. When it is fixed, you can bring them home. If not, then you have at least stopped breaking a law.

It doesn't matter if you disagree with it, it doesn't matter if you keep your animals quiet and clean, and it certainly doesn't matter if your neighbors are (for the moment) cool with it. You are breaking the law. What would getting caught do to the practice where you work? We aren't going to give you permission nor give you a way to get around it. At least I'm not.

Besides, you  just stated, in a very public and heavily visited blog, that you have these critters and are knowingly and willingly breaking laws in your area. Everyone already know your name. Everyone knows what county you live in. .......I'd start re-homing them now.

PaulaO July 7th, 2009 02:33:06 PM

In my opinion, most neighbors only complain when faced with conditions they don't appreciate.  Keep the animals low-visibility; no odours; no noise, and you'll probably never have a thing to worry about.  A nice wooden fence (although somewhat pricey) will do wonders for keeping prying eyes out of your back yard. 

It's great that you have a back up plan, so if you do decide to change your local laws, and there's some friction produced, they can be removed til you accomplish your goal.

It amazes me how much responsible pet owners pay the price for the irresponsible ones!  Like everyone else has stated here we all know of people keeping "legal, domesticated" pets in an irresponsible manner.  It seems to me that those people with the initiative, intelligence, and money to keep goats, chickens, and other "non-domestic" species of pets probably know what they are doing.  Perhaps there should be a license of sorts that you have to apply for in order to keep these "exotics"??

charliebear22 July 7th, 2009 03:18:26 PM

I don't have any unlawful pets right now, although I ** think ** that 4 is the limit in my jurisdiction and one more would put me over.

If I wanted more than 4, I would have to apply for a "hobbyists" exception from the limit.

I don't know if they have such "hobbyist" exemptions for people with animals that are classified as farm animals or exotics.

In another local jurisdiction last year there was a big bruhaha over immigrants raising/keeping live chickens.  It was against zoning regs, but in this community, the immigrant population was shocked and heartbroken that the police were telling them they couldn't keep their chickens.  There were articles on this, going into the whole cultural aspects -- how much keeping chickens was a part of "home" to them.  Although some killed chickens for food, most were using them for eggs.  Some were forced to kill and eat their egg-laying chickens rather than end up with a citation only to have them confiscated by the cops.  Children cried.  It was very thought provoking coverage because it really called into question whose ways of obtaining chickens and their eggs are more natural or humane.  Also, while health concerns were typically cited as a rationale for banning suburban chickens, many argue that our industrial farming practices are a bigger danger to human health.

Stefani July 7th, 2009 07:28:06 PM

I don't think I'd draw attention to myself by trying to change the laws..  I would keep the low profile, and don't step on anyones toes..

We live in the same kind of neighborhood on Long Island.. I can't imagine any of the people in our town putting up with the animals you have.. but then again, they have a hard time putting up with each other...

We have a couple of cows (cement ones), and the vet has a couple of chickens that have a habit of getting loose.. but haven't noticed anything else..

barri July 7th, 2009 08:55:22 PM

This town has a fairly draconian law requiring pediatric spaying & neutering of dogs and cats.  At the moment they can't afford the door to door cat police. They do have the door to door water enforcers running around issuing tickets & chats, so it might be a matter time that another form of revenue enhancement debuts...

We only have th one cat (confirmed only), but we got her when she was six years old and already spayed.  There have been NO symptoms at all that suggest this animal could possibly be an intact queen.  But, because we got her from a relative, there is no official paperwork certifying that she has been spayed.  She is indoor except on harness & leash or in a carrier.

How would I get proof she has been spayed if the cat police ever became an issue?  Due to her age, I'd want to avoid any kind of exploratory surgery.

Miss Kitty's Mom July 7th, 2009 09:02:15 PM

Eeeek, I specifically chose my location so as to be in compliance with the law AND not  be a nuisance to neighbors.

Barb A./NH July 7th, 2009 10:05:05 PM

When deciding upon my last parrot I deliberately excluded Quakers (aka Monk parakeets) because nearly half of the states in the US arbitrarily have laws banning them, and it's my understanding that violations can be met with seizing and euthanizing the animal, so it's NOT a risk I was willing to take.

I now live in mortal fear that House bill H.R. 669 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-669) will be passed.  This bill would by default outlaw all non-native non-domesticated species (and many domesticated ones as well), and the grandfathering clause for existing animals is truly minimal (does not allow transport across state lines, nor change of posession from the original owner to a rescue or any other individual in case of death or inability to care for the animal).

zandperl July 7th, 2009 11:46:33 PM

To respond to PaulaO: I was not aware of the zoning specifically excluding keeping livestock species as pets when I first acquired my brood. Growing up (in this same neighborhood) my neighbors kept about 10 goats. The neighbors about a block away have kept chickens for 20 years. Horses are still allowed. It was a shock to learn that all "livestock" species were specifically excluded...even as pets...even when you're NOT using them for commercial purposes. 

In fact, that was the original gist of the law: That no commercial activity take place in a residentially zoned area. It's not that these species prove a nuisance, but that commercial activity in residential areas might.

Meanwhile, I have neighbors that rent their house out for parties (routinely), neighbors that rent their house out for photo shoots and commercials (again, routinely), neighbors that sell designer handbags out of their home (and often have lots of cars parked out front). 

To me, it just seems unfair.

I'm with Stefani: If everyone had a goat or two for milking and a few laying hens our society would be far better off. To me, these laws are akin to those that keep people from drying their laundry outdoors--because it's "low class" and ugly. God forbid we should actually try to limit our consumption of fossil fuels in a way our neighbors consider declassé. 

And, btw, lots of municipalities are becoming aware that small-scale chicken-keeping is actually a good thing for the environment. An increasing number specifically allows well-contained hens--though roosters are still verbotten. 

Dr. Patty Khuly July 8th, 2009 08:24:02 AM

My dog rescue is at my home.  (PaulaO has seen it!).  Not huge, not smelly outside with the neighbors...  and yes when they first go outside there is barking but it settles. 

Regardless of all my work to be a good neighbor and be 'invisible' despite the ever changing numbers of dogs; the minute a complaint went to animal control about a dog barking "all night" I was the one who got the visit from AC. 

Nevermind there are no limits on pets here; no leash laws; and several neighbors whose dogs live outside 24/7 and constantly aggravate the dogs of those of us who try to be neighborly!!  Our only rule to work around is a noise ordinance from midnight to 7 am.  More than 15 minutes of continuous noise will get you a visit from the sheriff. 

Once hubby pointed out to AC (and the sheriff, who had to be called when it turned out the complaining neighbor was SHOOTING at my small dogs inside their own pen during the day to punish us for them barking all night) that to hear our dogs bark any time after 8 pm you had to be inside our home since they come in every single night....  we got off with a warning from AC. 

Yeah, you can bet I was relieved to only get a warning... NOT.  Only good thing was that not only was the neighbor drop down drunk (and using a pellet gun so injuries were minor thank god) his car registration wasn't in order nor his tags so the sheriff went BACK to visit him once we were done at my home. 

Beth Patterson July 8th, 2009 10:07:57 AM

Before I bought my house I checked with the city. There was a law prohibiting the city fathers from passing any ordinance that would prohibit the keeping of 2 sheep, 2 goats, 1 pig, 5 geese, 10 chickens, 10 rabbits, etc.  Since I had two lots, I picked up 20 chickens, all hand picked by the poultry expert to be hens. Needless to say, 19 of the 20 were roosters. But being a city slicker, it took me a while to figure this out.

One day the dog catcher came by and said I had to get rid of the chickens, that there had been a complaint. I asked who it was that had complained and explained that I'd invite him over and we would bar-b-cue the offending rooster together. He said that he would not tell me. Beinging a veteran, and having placed my life at the whim of a capricious government and sworn to protect the constitution, it didn't seem right that I should be denied facing my accuser.  So I told the dog catcher I would not remove the animals, and I quickly received a ticket for having nuisance animals.

I went and checked the law again, and they had removed it in favor of zoning ordinances. So I called the city attorney and explained that I had read the nuisance ordinance and I didn't know exactly what the problem was. Was it a stinky chicken, or a vicious chicken? or an untimely chicken? or a poisonous chicken? According to the ordinance, what exactly was the problem.

He said it was untimely. So I said that was a good thing. Since the ordinance did not define untimeliness, if the chicken did chicken things at chicken times, then it was not untimely. He explained that the judge would determine if it was untimely.

I said that that was even better, since then it would become an 'ex post facto' law, (the law defined after the fact) which is specifically forbidden by the constitution, and we would have the whole ordinance thrown out as unconstitutional.

He told me to keep the chickens, and tore up the ticket.

I now have chickens, goats, rabbits and ducks.

Before I got the goats I spoke with one of the code enforcement officers and asked to adopt the two goats that they have eating weeds at the pound.  She said we weren't allowed to have goats in the city (and they weren't up for adoption). I told her where I lived, and she said that almost anything goes in my neighborhood. Apparently we are off the map for code enforcement concerning animals as long as there are no health code violations.

Since then three of the officers have seen me out walking the goats, and the bicycle cops always stop to say hi to them.

Should I have any further problems, I will fight it with an 'unlawful taking' claim against the city.  My water rights supercede the city's, and are written in such a way that I am allowed sufficient water for my household and my farm animals. If they deny my right to have farm animals, they effectively steal my water.

Just because a law is on the books does not mean the law is constitutional.  In some places it is against the law to offend anyone on the street or sidewalk within the city limits.  I went and told the city attorney in one such place that while I was on the sidewalk I read the ordinance that prohibited my free speech, and I was offended, and wanted to press charges against the officials who passed the law.

So if you don't want to call attention to yourself, have a friend seek to change the law for chickens based on the facts that they are not a nuisance animal, pose no danger, are beneficial, and allow for people to help provide for themselves during difficult time. Suggest that everyone should be required to have chickens to reduce the mosquito population, provide eggs for the poor, etc.

Make  sure your friend is willing to shout down anyone who opposes it and can weep on cue while crying "It is for the children!"

When they refuse to require it, you accept the compromise of allowing it.

Then once the law is changed to accept chickens, use the same argument for goats, or whatever animal you want to keep. Some groups have used this slippery slope technique very effectively. Of course you have to deny that slippery slopes exist and are a manifestation of an over-active imagination or paranoia.

Bob Jones July 8th, 2009 10:24:32 AM

Simple truth is most of our legislatures and city councils have gone nuts enacting laws since the advent of electronic word processing. Laws shouldn't be passed unless there is an intent to fully enforce them but here we are and the result is many who live in fear of the consequences to them or their animals, pets or no.

Within my condo complex, there's a secret society of pet owners.  They've mostly tried to keep a low profile because our documents contain a "2 small pets per unit" and a "no birds" provision.  The City of Houston also has pretty strict limits.  The realities are that the condo association has little ability to enforce the provisions and it would be very expensive.  The City is even less likely to take action.  I'm aware that their internal policy is: 30+ cats and stench or vicious dogs or VERY neglected multiple (10+) will actually get their attention.  In my complex, there was also a split in the pet society with the cat only owners thinking we dog folk might come after their cats (usually at least 3/household).  Truth be told, most of the dog owners also have cats but the dogs are visible and the cats aren't and we don't go around announcing it.  Over time, people realized their cats were attracted to me and trusted me and word has gotten around that I had 4 cats when I moved back from the farm, in addition to my 2 dogs.  Our condo association has adopted an open policy that, if the neighbors aren't complaining of smell or noise, the association doesn't care; if they are AND it's a reasonable complaint, we'll try to work it out.

Personally, I think we should all be up and at arms at the enormous amount of time and energy our law makers expend on crap but I'm afraid we've become too lazy, cowardly, whatever to take them on individually and we don't seem willing to work in groups toward reasonable solutions although there's plenty out there that seem to accomplish it for the causes that are completely out there in space (HSUS types).  I'm all for a huge rise in civil disobedience on some of these issues like pet limits and what animals one can have at one's home but I am concerned for what will happen to my animals (from being taken by animal control to being left "motherless" if I'm arrested).

Dr. K, If I were you, I'd probably adopt the same approach (especially getting a fence up to encourage out of sight, out of mind).  However, I'm betting there's at least one complete jackass in your community that you might get sideways with or someone who's inclined to get a burr up their butt and pursue an issue fanatically and then what?  I'm moving outside City limits and, fortunately, we don't have the enormous consolidation like Miami-Dade as we have and continue to fight that tooth and nail.  Problem with consolidated areas like that is there's a council making rules for a too big, too diverse area and they're inclined to make rules designed for the most compact areas.

You could work for variance but then you're really outing yourself.

However, Dr. K, it's way too late for you to have a "low profile" :)  Might be time to consider whether you want to stay and fight, give up home critters, or move.  (PS: Eccentric and eclectic are pretty acceptable in most of Texas, outside of the dense downtown metro areas which really aren't very big.)

PJBoosinger July 8th, 2009 11:37:46 AM

Betsy...  I wholeheartedly agree with you on the 'it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission'.

Bob Jones...  you had me rolling!  I think I love you.  LOL!!!

Stephanie July 8th, 2009 11:55:34 AM

Bob Jones, You make me miss all the veterans I grew up arouund, especially Col. Keester (yes, his real name) who made the US Constitution a living thing for me in 9th grade civics class.  Thanks for the reminder.

PJBoosinger July 8th, 2009 12:20:40 PM

I'm trying to figure out how your neighbors can hide goats for you and am imagining goats mascarading as humans (like William Wegman's Weims).  :)

Posey July 8th, 2009 02:22:34 PM

Posey: Big enough properties can do wonders for marauding, masquerading caprines. ;-)

Dr. Patty Khuly July 8th, 2009 03:20:28 PM

I moved to the farm so I could have any critters I wanted but then had the strokes and my son dragged me to the condo.  Sometimes "stuff" happens :)  (Yes, I'm still disputing that concept from the other thread that one always has choices and is capable of exercising them.  Not so much when one has brain damage, albeit temporary. :)  Sometimes it can be difficult to find out what the laws and rules are too since you've got to deal with federal, state, county, and ci  ty and there's more of them all these days and sometimes even international treaties.  Worst of all are HOA or other community deed restrictions.  My complex has an easy set of them and it's 48 pages of legalese along with a couple of hundred pages of maps.  True, it's available at the courthouse prior to purchase but it's in several sections and they don't all show up in the index.  There's some that exist for the land that were filed before that and I'm probably the only one who's read those in 30 years.  Before I got on our board, I posted them on the internet for the owners; while on the board, we started making them available prior to purchase but that's really rare except for very high end properties.  The new place I'm moving too allegedly has deed restrictions but they aren't on file at the courthouse and no one in the subdivision admits to having a copy of them.  That means they're unenforceable but it could be a hassle for many if a set of the documents suddenly show up.

PJBoosinger July 9th, 2009 07:22:34 AM

I've raised abandoned squirrels and ducks - both illegal in my area. As long as we were good neighbors and kept our mouths shut, no problems.

I would just build a fence and keep quiet, but that's the type of person i am.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have chickens and goats! But not enough land right now, and i'm farily certain my extremely high prey-driven frenchie would love to chomp on a chicken. Which is also why we don't have a house bunny. sigh.

I really hope the bill fails - we foster guinea pigs quite frequently and i would hate for them to be outlawed. Wrote to my representative and she wrote back stating she approved of the bill based soley on the Asian Carp issue we have here in MN.

Needless to say she won't be getting my vote again.

Sarah July 9th, 2009 11:57:41 AM

I totally like your plan to landscape and fix up the front of the house and keep the goats and chickens. I like the idea too that someone else suggested that you go to the community meetings if there are any of them and just stay friends with everyone. Like you said about the Python, how in the world can anyone complain about a couple of goats and chickens. Good luck to you. Hope it all works out. I have goats too but I am lucky enough to have five acres.

Margaret Elmendorf July 11th, 2009 09:56:43 AM

I gambled with my condo association and lost.  I'm now in a townhouse.  Taking on an HOA or condo association by oneself is nearly always a losing proposition.  If you can get neighbors and some other helpful folks on your side, you'll be better off.

Fortunately, I kept all of my cats when I moved, and everyone is fine now.  My HOA's rules about pets defer to the county.  The county does not have a pet limit--only the requirement that the animals be kept in a clean, safe envorinment and be cared for sufficiently.  Even back at the condo when they sicced animal control on me, I got a good report from AC.  I just had to get rid of my carpet.

I will not go into how much I hate associations.  I will only say that the one under which I'm living now is very level-headed and reasonable and tolerable, and that my next move will be to an area without any such organizations.

Dr. Khuly, I'm a keep your head down, keep everything pretty and quiet and proper kind of person, so I'd stick with your plan.  It is excellent that you have a plan b, just in case the stuff hits the fan.

I hope to have enough land for a couple of goats one day.  I love them!

Jen M, Maryland

Jen M. July 30th, 2009 12:56:02 PM

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Mindy November 5th, 2009 08:20:25 AM

moved, and everyone is fine now. My HOA's rules about pets defer to the county. The county does not have a pet limit--only the requirement that the animals be kept in a clean, safe envorinment and be cared for sufficiently. Even back at the condo when they sicced animal control on me, I got a good report from AC. I just had to get rid of my carpet. Laptop Computers

henkry November 5th, 2009 01:05:07 PM

ouse and keep the goats and chickens. I like the idea too that someone else suggested that you go to the community meetings if there are any of them and just stay friends with everyone. Like you said about the Python, how in the world can anyone complain about a couple of goats and chickens. Good luck to you. Hope it all works out. I have goats too but I am lucky enough to have five acres. cheap logo design

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