Sorry about the mess-up this morning. The post is all fixed and ready for your comments. Thanks for your patience. (Galadriel: Feel free to re-post your previous comment.)

Dr. Patty Khuly February 4th, 2010 01:45:47 PM

It doesn't make sense to compare circus abuse cases to Cirque du Soleil's Cavalia - if Cavalia is actually as humane as you make it sound. I can't see the harm (relative to other activities that horses are used for) in using horses in the show because I completely agree with you on your point about the difference between using wild animals versus domesticated animals. But I guess, one could always argue that if we are ok with using one type of animal for entertainment purposes, than there will always be people who will refer to these cases to justify their use of wild animals in showbiz. The difference, however, is that there will inevitably be a lot more "discipline" required to get wild animals to go through a circuit than would be required for a domesticated animal. I mean, although these horses may be living in luxary, there's no denying they had to get disciplined one way or another in the process leading up to their perfect show. But can we count that as "inhumane" treatment if we compare it to how they would regularly be disciplined to race or jump or perform in rodeos? If someone is going to argue against the use of horses in these shows, in this apparently humane, or even pampered, environment, I would suggest they advocate against horse racing, rodeos, and perhaps even dog shows :)

Randy February 4th, 2010 03:56:48 PM

I had the pleasure to attend Cavalia on opening night.  I knew what to expect, but yet, not really.  It isn't until you actually attend that you realize how magnificent Cavalia really is.  I also had the honor of visiting the barn area and saw first hand how the horses are stabled.  First class all the way.  The stalls are large and very comfortable for horses of their size.

I have returned to the Cavalia site 3 times since opening night.  I can attest that the horses are permitted to roam freely in paddocks that have been set-up out side the box office trailer.  They get to enjoy some Florida sunshine and stretch their legs.  Just looking at their shiny coats, bright eyes and good healthy weight tells you these animals are well cared for. 

I did not see signs of abuse such as wounds, welts, or other indicators of physical abuse.  I did not see any lame animals or other animals with movement limitations. 

I have visited the Spanish Riding School of Vienna and seen the Lippizzaners in their manificent arena and all I can say is it is breath-taking, much like Cavalia.  Neither group abuses the animals.  On the contrary, those horses live better than most people.  Cavalia is endorsed by the US Humane Society and other animal rights groups that have scrutinized them and found the treatment of the horses more than adequate. 

I am a former horse owner.  I have participated in horse shows and have actively competed.  I would not consider horse shows or other competitons abusive to the animals.  Most horse owners take better care of their horses than they do themselves. 

Some people are fanatics and go overboard.  Get a life folks and before you attack something, take the time to actually see the show.  Then and only then can you really give an informed opinion.

MariaL February 4th, 2010 07:27:35 PM

This sounds like fun.  Maybe if it comes anywhere near here we can make it to a showing. 

Thanks for the additional info, Maria. It's great to hear they have paddocks even while traveling.  As hard as performing horses work, it's so much more healthy for them to be able to move around when they're not working, instead of standing in a stall getting stiff.

Galadriel February 4th, 2010 07:55:33 PM

I saw Cavalia when it was in town in the DC area.  I was very conflicted (my mom who is a horse lover was dying for me to take her) but I did as much research as I could and I couldn't find anything bad about them.  I have another "horse lover" friend who raved about them and especially their treatment of the horses (in a positive way, as in positive raves). 

As I watched, I still felt conflicted.  But the reality is, there are lots of horses, and trying to imaginethe possible life and fate of these horses if they WEREN'T in Cavalia --  perhaps particularly given the European taste for "cheval" -- is a bit of a reality test on evaluating Cavalia. 

We got the most expensive tickets that included a backstage, stable tour after the show.  There were some things that disturbed me (brands) but the horses looked well cared for and certainly had nothing to fear from humans.  My mom nearly got herself kicked out petting them (you are not sposed to touch) and I have really funny video of this (she also had waaay too much wine at the open bar so um, it was triply funny)

Still conflicted, but I guess I'd be a hypocrite if I said anything bad about them.  In today's world, Cavalia is a good fate for a horse.  I just want to know what happens to them when they are retired.

Stefani February 4th, 2010 08:56:50 PM

trying to imaginethe possible life and fate of these horses if they WEREN'T in Cavalia -- perhaps particularly given the European taste for "cheval" -- is a bit of a reality test on evaluating Cavalia.

 It's a CANADIAN show.  We don't eat horse up here- just cute baby seals ;)  But your point is correct- there are many horses suffering at the hands of ignorant owners and animal hoarders.  If these horses are treated as well as what's being reported- I see nothing wrong with it.

I would LOVE to see this show live!

Meghan RAHT February 4th, 2010 09:59:52 PM

I attended Cavalia a few years ago and was blown away.  It actually brought tears to my eyes.  I agree that you cannot possibly compare the use of wild animals in the circus to Cavalia.  If you have a problem with Cavalia, then you probably have a problem with the entire equestrian community, in particular the showing community in which the horses are in a similar environment.  (travelling great distances and performing)  Yes we ride horses, train them, ask them to perform.  Some people see this as inhumane.  But I can testify that there is nothing more amazing than the bond between horse and rider.  Cavalia celebrates this in a beautiful, respectful and artistic way.

KSAkemi February 5th, 2010 12:38:54 AM

I have seen wild horses and they are MAGNIFICENT too.  It doesn't change that we ALSO domesticate them.  We have been domesticating all kinds of species throughout history.  To draw some artificial line with it's OK to domesticate dogs, cats, horses... but not "wild" animals is totally artificial; a social construct we arrogantly want to impose on others just as we want to tell the world what types of meat they may or may not eat.

A tiger or snake or horse or cat may be domesticated or wild but domestication is a lifestyle of training rather than a state of being, as "wild" may also be.  It simply isn't so simple as plastering a label on a species as "pet", "livestock", "domestic", "wild" because many animals can be in multiple categories, even simultaneously and it is narrow minded to think otherwise.

Dr. K, in this, I would have to count you on "PETA's side", more's the pity.

PJB http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ February 5th, 2010 01:42:33 AM

PJB- domesticated animals have been bred to be used to humans. They have been selected to get less stressed and be less afraid than their wild counterparts, and often to be happy in smaller territories. A lion is much harder to keep as a pet than a cat, because cats have been bred to be kept with us. This isn't PETA rhetoric (they're against pet animals altogether, wild or domesticated), it's just how it is.

Look up Belayev's foxes. It shows exactly the difference between wild animals and domesticated ones- it's not a social construct, it's not artificial. Raise a wild animal and a domesticated animal the same way adn they will behave in different ways. You can even breed animals for non-tameness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fC7l6gW05k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzTcmE-pMLU

Simba February 5th, 2010 05:38:04 AM

"domesticated animals have been bred to be used to humans. They have been selected to get less stressed and be less afraid than their wild counterparts, and often to be happy in smaller territories."  But NONE of them started that way until after they'd been captured from their natural element.

"A lion is much harder to keep as a pet"  Oh yes but we're talking about working animals (circuses and shows like the one of the main topic line here); NOT simple pets.

"because cats have been bred to be kept with us"  And that's just nonsense as anyone who has seen how quickly feral most cats will turn if given the opportunity.

"Look up Belayev's foxes..."  I'm not saying all animals are suitable for all roles but neither will I pigeon hole species by arrogant, biased western standards alone.

PJB February 5th, 2010 06:46:53 AM

PJB: If you think my take on wild vs domesticated (simplistically and incompletely outlined above, I'll admit) is anything like PETA's, you'd be wrong. It's the take that makes no distinction that approximates the more radical view.  

Dr. Patty Khuly February 5th, 2010 06:55:04 AM

I'm frankly disturbed by the tone of "guilty until proven innocent" here.

Maybe it would be better to refrain from assuming something is cruel to animals until and unless some evidence of, you know, actual animal cruelty is presented, rather than imperiously decide that an activity that is "suspect" based on no data might actually be okay once they've somehow proved they aren't flaying horses.

I don't understand why any non PeTAn would regard this show as a sort of guilty pleasure, rather than revel in the magificence of the animals' athleticism and training, as the animals do themselves.

H. Houlahan February 5th, 2010 08:13:36 AM

Stefani:

>>My mom nearly got herself kicked out petting them (you are not sposed to touch)>>

This was for the safety of both people (ALL horses bite) and the horses (anyone who didn't wash her hands thoroughly before touching the Cavalia horses could potentially spread disease).

I've never seen the show.  One of my clients, a Grand Prix dressage rider/trainer, went last year.  She said it was hokey and sappy but fun.

Equine DVM February 5th, 2010 08:58:49 AM

I mean, although these horses may be living in luxary, there's no denying they had to get disciplined one way or another in the process leading up to their perfect show.

Disciplined?  I'll deny it.  Maybe you mean that in a different way from what I understand.  Sure, they were trained, but it doesn't necessarily follow that punishment was involved.  Really special dogs and horses LOVE to be learn.  My whippets get VERY excited whenever I pick up the clicker.

Julie in OH February 5th, 2010 11:35:58 AM

PJ, you obviously don't understand domestication if you think a snake can be domesticated. Domestication is the state of being of an animal, whose ancestors were free-roaming and were not controlled by humans (other than when humans may have forced them to move in a particular manner - ex. gathered and chased using various geographical features and startle/fear responses of the animals to drive them over a cliff to the deaths), but whose offspring, down to the individual in discussion, have been kept in some form or confinement (even largeranges when controlled in some fashion) for many generations - and the offspring of those animals are selected for calm behavior (as well as other traits). These animals provide a benefit that is worth the effort to achieve it, and the vast majority of animals on the planet not only haven't been domesticated, but cannot be domesticated, because their behaviorisn't amenable to selective breeding (or culling).

All reptiles and amphibians, with the exception of tortoises (and not all of them), cannot be domesticated. Even those tortoises who are calm (and whose interactions with humans are filled with proper care and quiet, gentle handling), are not going to provide enough of a benefit to people to go through the even try to figure out, at a very young age, if there will be a significant difference in their behavior to select one over another for further breeding.

The same holds true for all species of feline - other than the one we domesticated thousands of years ago. If any of the other species would have been useful - and worth the effort to try to breed/cull for calmness - humans would have already done it. The foxes that Belyaev partially domesticated, could be safely confined, reproduced in capivity at an acceptable rate, and the offspring, at a young age, showed differences in behavior to stimulae that allowed for selective breeding/culling to replicate and increase the trait of calmness he was aiming for, and he could do so without expending more effort than it (the knowledge gained) was worth.As his experiment went on, the foxes got calmer, but they also developed spotted fur, curled tails, shorter legs, and other traits, which showed that the expression of one gene(or a small number of genes), selectively bred for, will impact (change) the expression of many other genes,and the experiment was stopped. This experiment took place in a relatively short time span (maybe 30 generations), and showed thatwhen earlier humans decided to find out if a sother species could be kept and provide a value for the effort expended, that, with the correct species,domestication can be a quick and worthwhile thing for a society to do. That our societies have only done it to a certain number of species does not mean that any and all species can be domesticated, but that most species cannot be.

This is not because domestication is just "a lifestyle of training rather than a state of being" but rather that domestication is a state of being, achieved through an artificial selection breeding/culling process.  This is how we developed the various breeds of horses from one or two wild species in the equus family that were not zebras.  Even now, when yes, some loony, rich person could conceivably go to the effort to domesticate the zebra, there's no purpose it would serve that one of the many breeds of horses/mules out there wouldn't do better.  Especially in a modern age when horses have an even smaller role to fill in society, domesticating zebras is not happening. 

KateH February 5th, 2010 11:41:25 AM

>>Even now, when yes, some loony, rich person could conceivably go to the effort to domesticate the zebra, there's no purpose it would serve that one of the many breeds of horses/mules out there wouldn't do better.>>

Based on personal (unfortunate) experience, I must say I don't think it's possible to domesticate a zebra.  They're wild animals no matter how young they are socialized to humans.

Equine DVM February 5th, 2010 02:29:32 PM

"I don't understand why any non PeTAn would regard this show as a sort of guilty pleasure, rather than revel in the magificence of the animals' athleticism and training, as the animals do themselves."

Actually, I had no notion to come down on Cavalia and was absolutely surprised at the suggestion when I received the question. I certainly hope not to have aided the minions of blue meanies with my answer. 

Dr. Patty Khuly February 5th, 2010 05:06:19 PM

So.... i go to the site. and drop jaw when i see the cost!!!!!

The  question is-- is this worth 200 per ticket? for 2 people (yikes) $400. even if you get the other seats, $89 per ticket. Is it worth it? What did all the OTHER things cost? parking, refreshments, etc.. by the time its all added up, you could have bought a horse.

How long does the show last? I read your post thinking cool i'm going to grab my mom and head South!aaaah, not so sure any more. What were the "cheap seats" like?

I don't think they're exploiting the horse. Seems like their exploiting my pocketbook. All peta-esque postings aside, i wonder how it will do in this economy. It surely costs a fortune to keep this going. And i'm sure the animals are in superb care. But can a show like this survive? Do circus's cost this much? I'm way out of the loop on that too.

JOJO February 5th, 2010 06:02:19 PM

Something I failed to mention.  While Cavalia was in Atlanta they rescued two horses.  On another leg of the tour, they encountered another abuse case who is now one of the stars of the show, a horse named Ricardo.  He had been badly abused by a previous owner.  The family who rescued him could do nothing with him and were very afraid of him.  He had become quite violent.  Cavalia took him in.  He is a completely different horse today.  Frankly, if you have a problem with the way Cavalia cares for its horses, then you probably have problem with any type of show or activity that involves animals.  Not all shows or activities that involve animals abuse them.  These horses are very loved and cared for.  Animals that are afraid do not behave the way these horses behave when they are not performing.  Remember, I have been out to the Cavalia site three times since I saw the show and always at different times. I work in the area and pop over easily.  The horses in the paddocks are not afraid of people and they certainly do no exhibit any signs of physical abuse.   

MariaL February 5th, 2010 08:07:50 PM

Ringling tickets in NC next week run from $12-85/person.  They've really kept those prices down but they'll talk your money out of you all over the arena and parking lot and everywhere in between :)

"I certainly hope not to have aided the minions of blue meanies with my answer."  I fear you frequently give them aid without realizing it :(

PJB February 5th, 2010 08:09:29 PM

It is good to hear of them rescuing horses.

The show was a "celebration" of cooperaton between human and horse, but yes, I saw some "corrections".  Not harsh, but nonehteless. As beautiful as the show was, there is a part of me that just plain doesn't like to see animals bent to our will for entertainment.  Yet, that part of me is not very realistic because as I said, in todays world, Cavalia is a very good deal for a "domesticated" horse.  You can't turn these guys loose in the increasinignly nonexistent "wild."

This past year, I decided to learn about horses and volunteered a couple of times at a horse rescue, visited another horse farm with my "horsewoman" friend who was mroe than happy to share her love of them with me. 

I realized I have a long way to go before I could ever be competent with horses.  It is against my nature to dominate an animal, to tell an animal what to do.  And it seems you definitely have to with horses, for their good and yours. Not dominate in a bad way, but you definitely have to get them to do what you want.  You have to get this 1,000 pound animal to do what you want it to just so you can clean it's hooves, etc. 

Maybe it's my cats'  training of me that makes this role feel weird or innappropriate to me.  Perhaps the cats in my life  have taught me well that my appropriate posture with animals is a posture of subservience and allowing them to do what they want, when they want.  In fact, also me doing what they want, when they want.  But if a horse senses they you don't think of yourself as boss then you can't even groom them without trouble.  Definitely a different frame of mind -- you have to "top" a 1,000 pound animal.  Feels weird! 

No brainer to those of you who are experienced with horses but it's a real mind trip for me!

Stefani February 5th, 2010 11:14:50 PM

>>It is against my nature to dominate an animal, to tell an animal what to do. And it seems you definitely have to with horses, for their good and yours. Not dominate in a bad way, but you definitely have to get them to do what you want. You have to get this 1,000 pound animal to do what you want it to just so you can clean it's hooves,etc.>>

The potential consequences of a horse behaving in a disrespectful manner towards a person are very serious.  I'm not a horse, and I don't expect horses to accept me as part of the herd.  It actually would be undesirable for me, a 120-lb human, to be part of a herd, because herd dynamics include biting, kicking, striking and chasing to enforce herd hierarchy.  In my experience, if I'm fair and straightforward in my dealings with horses, many are better-behaved for me than for their owners, which I attribute to clear communication.  Many disrespectful horses are simply confused by mixed signals unintentionally transmitted by owners who are frequently subconsciously uneasy in the presence of the size, strength, energy and speed of a normal horse.  Poor behavior is frequently misinterpreted by the owner as fear or even a sign of former "abuse", which often results in further deterioration of behavior.

My own horse knows exactly what to expect from me, as do many of my long-time patients.  Without exception, the best-behaved horses in my practice are professionally trained horses (mine was started professionally), including racehorses and ex-racehorses.  In my experience, the vast majority of professionals' horses don't experience abuse; it simply isn't necessary if one communicates clearly with the horse.  The major problem for non-professionals, as you learned, Stefani, is that it takes a long time and exposure to many horses before one is comfortable around the animals - let alone capable of communicating clearly.

I think I know what horses want:  an all-day buffet of food, freedom to move around, and freedom to socialize with other horses.  Many horses like people, but unlike our canine friends, most horses will never prefer the company of any person to that of other horses, or even to solitude:  why should they?  i consider it a tremendous compliment when a horse decides I'm okay, for a human.

Equine DVM February 6th, 2010 10:04:53 AM

not sure i totally agree with that last paragraph EquineDVM. I have a horse here that was AWFUL with other horses. what a PIA it was trying to schedule personal paddock time for her. Now i have her here on my property alone for 2 years and she was a happy horsie. add a few goats and now she thinks she's a goat. I added a miniature horse to the mix just a few years ago. I'm not sure if it was training or her personality but she did NOT like the horses she was around, still doesn't like to interact with them. maybe just an alpha mare.  She is happy with her herd of misfits. Oh, and she loves the pig too!

Stefani, i don't think anyone can MAKE a horse do anything (outside of beating it). Its the beauty of them wanting to please, their curiosity, and how they look at us. I do think they see us larger then what we really are, physically and emotionally. It's one of the greatest joys when you and horse are in sync. i get her, she gets me. and we go off and enjoy things together. But i surely don't make her jump on that trailer, with enthusiasm, she does that out of trust for me. :) Can't do that without lots of training. and lots of repetition.  Otherwise, its just not a safe or fun situation. Big hats off to any one that trains horses day in and day out. They are excellent communicators i bet in all areas of their life situations. and hats off to those that are vets around them, too. Just had one of the vets get put in the hospital by one of his patients. for 2 months. If you continue around horses, one mindset i always follow from a book title, " there are no problem horses, Only problem riders" simplistic but a good rule of thumb when working with them. I always ask myself what did i just do wrong to make her do that. Has always helped me work out things with all the animals. (except the cats). :)

jojo February 7th, 2010 06:33:26 AM

Jojo, I enjoyed reading your post.  Yes maybe "make" is not the right word. 

I am a city girl and went horseback riding for the first time in my life last summer.  My friend who took me hand't really checked out the place before we went.  The horses were not in awful condition, but not the best either, and the one they gave me frankly looked "wormy bellied" to me (not that I know what that looks like on a horse, but that's what it looked like to me) and her bones were kind of sticking out in the rear.  Not skinny but fat in the wrong places.   She didn't want to go, she kept stopping.  She kept trying to stop to eat which I was not allowed to let her do because of colic, he said.

I kept having to pull up hard on her bit and the leader kept telling me to put my heels into her to get her to go.  I am not a big person and I don't think I was hurting her but she did not want to ride and I didn't blame her, and I felt like a monster.  I just wanted to get off her, pay the guy for an hour, walk her back to shed and feed and groom her.  Actually I wanted to pay him to give her the day off.

I get it that a horse has to "trust you" and building that relationship of trust feels like it would be important to me feeling safe around the horse and also me feeling as though the horse can trust me enough to do what I am "asking" it to do, whether it is lifting a leg so I can clean a hoof, grooming them or riding them. I feel like that is something that has to be earned.

Good thing I was paired with a much more experienced person at the rescue because we were working on seized carriage horses and they were not used to being worked on that much, a little skittish. (They are a good rescue they would not have let me do that without a more experienced person).  The horses don't have the luxury even at the rescue of the same person working with them every day to build that trust, they have to get used to many different people showing up to work on them.

I'm not experienced enough with horses to feel comfortable walking confidently up to a somewhat skittish and uncooperative horse and trying to pick it's hooves!  Maybe someday, but not yet!

Stefani February 7th, 2010 09:30:37 AM

>>I have a horse here that was AWFUL with other horses>>

Yes, that's true. Some horses are loners.  Most horses much prefer the company of other horses (or other non-human species) to that of humans, though.

>>Just had one of the vets get put in the hospital by one of his patients

Two years ago a very experienced veterinarian was killed by a horse:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/45431/steiner-dies-from-head-injuries

Equine DVM February 7th, 2010 11:36:49 AM

I worked with horses for a Masters in Animal Science and I had a horse just NUDGE me against a stall wall and broke my ribs... you must respect their size and weight... that said- I also saw Cavalia and part of the behind the scenes tour was to watch the female trainer working with horses... she trained them with gentle nudges, sounds and was basically a "horse whisperer".  Someone said the show as sappy.  If you mean that it can make you emotional- then yes- watching this trainer with the horses- you can see pure love and affection. I loved the show- hate the circus... big difference...oh yeah- and I once saw a cat show where the owner incorporated comedy in it so when the cat didn't think the reward of a treat was worth the effort of doing the trick, the trainer made it seem that was part of the act.. brilliant!

Carolyn March 3rd, 2010 11:40:03 AM